From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #176 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Wed, 11 April 2001 Vol 08 : Num 176 In this issue: eskrima: Dos with dogs eskrima: Dos Manos eskrima: Vacationing in AZ eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #175 eskrima: GM Cacoy Canete Doce Pares Eskrima seminars eskrima: Re: Review of Baet seminar eskrima: . ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1300 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Mike Inay (1944-2000), Founder of the Inayan System of Eskrima. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima-Digest at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "arlan and angel sanford" Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 19:13:51 -0600 Subject: eskrima: Dos with dogs My observations on Dos Manos styles ( by the way, Krabi- Krabong uses a lot of Dos Manos type moves) I find the Dos Manos moves very strong, but ( a big but ) slow to regroup and restrike compared to someone good with a regular grip, a big disadvantage as the range closes. Also, when I fight someone who is using a double handed grip, their hands are a very easy target, I'd say I can hit the hands almost at will. The exception seems to be when the double handed fighter has a much longer weapon. It also seems to me both hands on one weapon reduces your attacks, since you can only use both hands on one attack. Don't get me wrong, I think there is a time and place for dos manos work due to it's power, as I said the Krabi uses it a lot, but, personally I love fighting opponents that keep both hands on one stick, it makes my fight easier. Arlan ------------------------------ From: "BILL MCGRATH" Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 23:10:50 -0400 Subject: eskrima: Dos Manos I use the following terminology for the three ways of using a two handed grip in my walking stick classes. The terms come from where the left hand is positioned. 1. Low Grip. The "baseball bat" grip 2. Middle Grip. The left hand has moved above the right to grip the middle of the stick. AKA the Bayonet grip. 3. High Grip. Both palms are facing the ground when the stick is held at arm's length. Punyo protrudes from each end. I haven't seen Hock's system, so I can't comment on it. But on the general subject of different hand positions in two hand grip, I'll make these observations from the Pekiti-Tirsia system. LOW GRIP: The low grip is reserved for sticks with enough length to make this grip either necessary (as with a heavy walking stick) or effective (a one hand grip is better for shorter sticks). The low grip does give you a great deal of power with the right length weapon, but the one hand grip does have the advantage in flexibility of movement. MIDDLE & HIGH GRIP: There is a beginning series in Pekiti single stick called the Solo Baston Abcedario. This series has 12 sets of 12 strikes and is designed to show a new student specific targets on the human body and uses different types of strikes and thrust to attack these targets. In eight of these sets there is at least one thrust that uses a two hand grip on the stick and the last two sets use a two hand grip exclusively. However, these are just basic angles of attack, i.e. how and where to strike, but not when. The "when" is learned in the advanced sets (Seguidas, Contradas, Recontras, etc). It seems that most of the time you see a middle or high grip in Pekiti, it is done as a stick retention measure to defeat an attempt to disarm or clinch. Usually the idea is that you have just disarmed the opponent and he charges trying for a disarm or a clinch/smother/takedown, which you stop with techniques that use a two hand grip. The exception to this is when an armed opponent tries to disarm you and you use the middle or high grip to defeat the disarm. In this situation you really have to be aware of what your opponent's weapon is doing and use the counter to the disarm to position you to block his stick attack. You can also use the middle grip to help your weapon clear the opponent's weapon out of your path. This can be done with a sword if the choil area is long enough (see the sword on the logo on the start page of the Pekiti-Tirsia International web site). http://www.pekiti-tirsia.com/index.html You can view a further description of Pekiti-Tirsia techniques at: http://www.pekiti-tirsia.com/docs/overview.html Regards, Tuhon Bill McGrath ------------------------------ From: Cplr50@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 01:29:10 EDT Subject: eskrima: Vacationing in AZ Group, I'm going to be in Arizona (sedona, tucson and Pheonix) in mid to late april. I will hopefully have some time on my hands to get in a few workouts . is anybody on this list form there.. if so please send me your address so I can do a stop by for crosstraining and learing. Thanks Steve cplr50@aol.com ------------------------------ From: "Jeff Allen" Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 12:54:55 -0500 Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #175 Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet, I guess that's one of the problems with an internet -- it tough to use your hand for expression and it tough to demonstrate. We would probably agree on 99% of the information over a quiet table and good food and drink. But, your post was filled with underhanded insult to me in particular. Those were not appropriate and not needed based on my orginal post. But I'll try to cover content first. I don't believe that any system will work just on it's techniques. It takes creativity on the part of the teacher and the students. just as you stated: "Non-sense, single handed as effective of double handed punyo.again is depend who is using it or applying the techniques" <---depending on who is using it or applying the technique. One of the ideas, that I tried to get across, was opens peoples eyes to the transition between single and double handed grips. You can't keep your hand in one spot on the stick all of the time and have it work all of the time. I would bet that many students that have studied for years have never been introduced to a comprehensive study of double handed techniqes. We have a core of good veterans on the list, but there are also a lot of new participants that haven't had a chance to travel down the same road. I've hit some pot holes in the road that I don't want anyone else to have to experience. The SDMS system is part of a larger combative philosophy. We have very few people just study dos manos and say "I got it". It a way to expand people's weapon work. There's a time for single handed techniques and a time for double stick techniques. Here's were you were insulting to me: You stated: "As a Filipino Martial Arts stylist, I dont believed that yoo are over confident to your system." Am I not a FMA stylist??? If overconfidence is a problem, we should probably just close down this list and go home and not share ideas. You stated: "First of all, let me ask you this when DMS developed? Because FMA is not developed yesterday is developed centuries ago...But it does not means that not exist prior to the DMS developments." I'm not an idiot nor do I believe that Hock is...Did you think that I/we have lived in a vacuum. I have tried to study the history of each of the arts that I have studied. Please don't make a giant leap about my knowledge of martial arts. I have an ego, but not not when it come to martial systems. If it keeps you alive, use it and be happy -- I'm a university professor and a natural sceptic of everything. The SDMS system is ANOTHER way for people to stay alive. It's another item for people's backpack of ideas. Yes, I fought full-contact with sticks on the East Coast from 1990-1993. I have been taken down with both single and double stick techniques. I will still stand by the fact that you can take someone down harder with a double handed techniques than with a single handed techniques....you naturally use your body more than your arms when doing double handed techniques, and it's quicker to teach people in the grappling range. There's a time for single sticks and a time for double sticks. Additionally, I like this statement: "I have no doubt that the system is probably worth learning. Nice to know that, other FMA also have recieved also a tremendous wowed from different crowd. Its is again depend on what system you favor." <--- probably worth learning. Thanks for the vote of confidence in the system. My post did not mention superiority. My post did not mention that the SDMS invented dos manos in the FMA. My post did not suggest that people plant both hand on the stick to survive (for example I stated: This transition is one of the most valuable skills that fighters can learn." My post did try to help explain why it was created. FMA student's at Hock's seminars and in his classes did not study it. Therefore, the gap was filled for them. If you question my personal skill, knowledge of attitude about it, talk to Hock. If you already have it.....wonderful. It's easy to pick apart examples given in any e-mail. We all have a tough time answering people "what if" and "I saw work once" and "I can do this" situations..it's tough to predicting how people will read your examples over the internet. At the end of your critique you stated: :...Its really nice to watch, to open a new ideas." Several members of the list stated that they watched Hock's tapes and liked them. My suggestion to people is to watch Hock's SDMS tapes.....so please, watch them and be open to new ideas. I will confidently stand by the original post and provide details if you would like them and we can have a long discussion. Just give me time to put on my flame proof underwear. I will not answer insults of my intelligence and will not defend my grammar and spelling. If you want to know my martial arts background ask me or the people that know me....don't make assumptions. If you don't like what a "student of the teacher" says, ask the teacher (see my last post). I stated: >>I believe the DMS system has struck a nerve with people because opens up a >>whole new frontier in their stick work (blade work also if you pay >>attention). You responded: "I think you are self centered if you claimed this. Well, I am sure you open a new whole different topic to discuss here. You should look around first before throwing something like this, you might hit someone sensitive like me. As a Filipino Martial Arts stylist, I dont believed that yoo are over confident to your system." Your inherent response to my original post seem to be...."but my sytem also has this". Wonderful. This list and the participants should be on the list to share ideas and not to piss on trees. None of the questions that you posed were constructive of positive, they just ended in an insult.....meant or otherwise. If there are question about the system, question about particular techniques, or combative philosophies please let's continue the discussion. But let's not continue an arguement of mine's better that yours. The tree's are just getting wet. Jeff Allen drjeffallen@home.com > From: GatPuno@aol.com > Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 12:47:34 EDT > Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #174 > > Jeff, > > Its is nice to know that you are very comfident to your claimed. I just want > to clear things up to your words, and would like to point it out small > portioned of it. I have no doubt, that your system will work to your point of > view in combat.. but let put the word IF..IF word make a lot of difference to > your claimed. Well let me start to answer some of the point to your own words. ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 9:05:07 PDT Subject: eskrima: GM Cacoy Canete Doce Pares Eskrima seminars FYI... 2001 schedule for Doce Pares Eskrima GM Cacoy Canete. Your chance to train with a true living legend. May: 5th Asian Fighting Arts, 5099 Springboro Pike; Daytona, Ohio 45449; Email: pencakahantu@yahoo.com Contact: Ken Pannell @ 937-293-5520 12th House of Champions, 17631 Vanowen St., Van Nuys, CA 94533; Email: Contact: Mark Parra @ 818-996-7180 19th Tony Ramos Kajukenbo, 1363-B Oliver Rd., Fairfield, CA 94533 Contact: Sifu dave Amiccuci @ 797-425-1154 26th Open for scheduling June: 3rd, 9th & 17th Open for scheduling 23rd Dacascos Martial Arts, 3104 SW.87th. Av, Portland, OR 97225; Email: SifuAl@aol.com Contact: Sifu Al Dacascos @ 503-292-5273 24th Ron Tapec, 14224 80th St.E, Puyallup, WA 98126, Contact @ 206-848-6577 July: 7th Open for scheduling 14-15th MONTREAL CANADA Contact: Chris Bautista 21-22 Reading Martial Arts Academy, 8711 Reading Rd., Cincinnati, Ohio 45215; Email: rmassifu@one.net Contact: Rick Teeple @ 513-821-8221 28th American Martial Arts, 281 Belmont St., Boston, Mass 02478; Contact Bobby Giordano @ 617-489-7373 29th Open for scheduling August: 5th IMB Academy, 22109 S.Vermont Av., Carson, CA 90502; Email: R.Bustillo@worldnet.att.net Contact: Richard Bustillo @ 310-787-7893 11th House of Champions, 17631 Vanowen St., Van Nuys, CA 94106-4353; Contact: Mark Parra @ 818-996-7180 18th West Doce Pares Master's Annual Tribute, PO Box 33020, San Jose, CA 95152-3020 Email: jebrup@worldnet.att.net; Contact: Rev. Rupert Bisquera @ 408-946-2825 19th Glen Tenud's Taekwondo, 6198 Mission St., Daly City, CA 94014, Contact: Glen @ 650-992-9937 Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: "Ernest Westbrook" Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 17:02:02 -0000 Subject: eskrima: Re: Review of Baet seminar river@umr.edu, wrote: >Subject: eskrima: Garimot Seminar Review > >This is a short review of a Filipino Martial Arts seminar by Gat Puno >Abon Baet. It was held in the town of Rolla, MO, just last weekend, >April 7 and 8. > >I'm sure everyone on the list is familiar with Guro Abon's >background, so >I won't repeat it here. I will say that all of the >praise that I've read >about him is true. He's a very friendly, >generous man, with a great sense >of humor. He makes everyone feel >right at home, part of the brotherhood >of Garimot Arnis. Hello Tim, This is an excellent begining to a review. I am in complete agreement with you regarding GP Abon, he is an excellent FMA teach and a greater human being. There is definately a lot of joy and laughter when he is teaching his arts. >Some of the best time spent with Guro Abon was during the rides to >and >from the airport, and over lunch and dinner. He is very >knowledgeable about the theory and philosophy behind the arts, and >extremely well versed in the history- he confessed to having a love >of >history, which was apparent as the dates rolled off his tongue >while >relaying the history to me. We are quite lucky to have him posting on this forum. Hopefully more people will take the time to reads his posts carefully and think about what he has written. He definately knows what he is talking about both in terms of history and the actual presentation of his arts. >This seminar was essentially an introduction to the Garimot system of >Arnis, Harimaw Buno, and Hilot. One of the things that was different >(and enjoyable) about this seminar was that Guro Abon did not have a >'demonstration dummy' with him- he picked different people at >different >times to demonstrate the technique. Everyone got to feel >the pain and >effectiveness of the techniques he demonstrated. This sounds like the standard approach that he takes at a seminar. GP Abon wants everyone to get involved. >Guro Abon taught a basic Cinco Teros drill with locks, disarms, >throws, >and more locks. Also with single stick, he instructed us in the first >three Moro-Moro dances in Garimot Arnis- Batalya Isa, >Dalawa, and Tatlo. I wish i could have been there, I have only seen the first of the moro-moro dances. >These forms were both beautiful and very fun. Guro demonstrated them >with all the extras- twirling, jumping, even humming a little rhythm. :) >He also demonstrated the application of the Moro-Moro, and how it can >be >done with one stick, double stick, stick and dagger, empty hand, >etc. There are three other FMAs instructors who I have worked with in seminars, who are very adept at making those kinds of translations within their presentations, so the work of GP Abon, was/is of great interest to me because I can see how flexible these kinds of conceptual instructional programs are to a wide variety of stylists within the larger FMAs community. >Guro also taught some basic knife defense, based on the Tres Puntos >system, and combined the knife with the Buno for some really fun >stuff. Damn it, I am jealous, he actually showed that stuff. We had to find it for ourselves after his seminars with us. >What amazed me the most, personally, was Guro Abon's largo mano >technique. That man is slippery- you can't touch him. He'll move >just >enough to let your strike pass by, and beat the hell out of you >with his >counters; even more amazing, he can hit you before you hit >him, let your >strike miss, and still follow up some more. So you've >just traded him one >swing that got nothing but air, for 5 or 6 solid >strikes to the head and >body. Simply amazing. Really is a lot more understandable when you are out on the floor trading blows with him isn't it? From the sidelines it seems like it would be so easy to tag GP Abon, but the real proof is in act of trying to get a stick on him! You can't, with sort of any consistency and without getting tagged in return! So from your perspective, Tim, it would seem that you and I are in agreement, GP Abon, has a lot of insights and imformation to offer and his Northern style of Arnis is every bit as challenging and sharp as the arts of the Visayan region, which most of us are more familiar with. Since I have had the opportunity to train with GP Abon, here in the States and I was trained in a moro-moro family style in RP, I am hopeful that some of our friends here on the Digest will take advantage of the opportunities to train with people such as GP Abon and others who are not as well known in the media hyped publications. ArchBishop EBrook 2nd Chief Teacher - Surge Eskrima USA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 10:40:05 PDT Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #176 **************************************** To unsubscribe from the eskrima-digest send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. 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