From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #177 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Wed, 11 April 2001 Vol 08 : Num 177 In this issue: eskrima: Re: DMS comantary eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #176 eskrima: Dos Manos System original Post. eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #176 eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #176 eskrima: Fw: Alliance Drug Free Open Martial Arts Tournament - May 5, 2001 eskrima: . ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1300 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Mike Inay (1944-2000), Founder of the Inayan System of Eskrima. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima-Digest at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Johnaleen" Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 14:49:28 -0400 Subject: eskrima: Re: DMS comantary Jeff i have Been reading your commentary on the DMS system and you are giving the impression that Hawk and DMS are a type of FMA or an FMA style.. or so the impression you make seems to state. I believe Hawk dose not teach FMA nor is DMS an FMA style... the real question i have here is What Style of FMA have you studied and learned enough of that you are comparing it to DMS in such a way as to imply that most FMA styles apply to the below statement ? Maybe if i understood that one question it would make things easer for me to understand where you might be coming from.... Jeff Wrote***" I believe the DMS system has struck a nerve with people because opens up a whole new frontier in their stick work (blade work also if you pay attention).""**** This is one of the places i am lost in your commentary... I know that over my years of training in Eskrima-Kali-Arnis each teacher and style i have studied under, have all taught me a few things as fact.. "Note: except for the one or 2 Exceptions" 1) the Punyo is used in close range combative... 2) we have covered all ranges in my training 3) part of what i have learned and now teach are the double handed strikes with a single stick and cane 4) ***blade work also if you pay attention).""**** number 4) this statement... its the one that started me on this quire... Except for a few Styles of FMA that have broken down there systems for just Stick work.. the original intent for 98 % of FMA styles is Sword,Dagger,Blade,Stick.... the stick is just a representation of Bladed Weapons and can be applied in the day to day reality's of this world with the stick..... but everything is done with the general knowledge and practices based on this really being a blade that will CUT you... At least that's what i have been taught by my teachers over the years and i have touched quite a few traditional and non traditional Styles of FMA, including currently teaching someone that has been and still is training in Hawks DMS system of defense... I know that i have paid attention and no doubts most on this digest know the realty's of this stick really representing a blade. to the point that some of us do live blade training... so back to my first and main Question here for you... What style of FMA did you say you have studied and learned enough to compare DMS to? Ms J bows deeply.... Ms. Johnaleen Castro CEO/F.A.T.E. 1-888-526-4626 Victims Program Facilitating Awareness Through Empowerment FATE@f-a-t-e.org www.f-a-t-e.org ------------------------------ From: "Jeff Allen" Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 02:14:57 -0500 Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #176 Arlan, I think the transition from single to double handed is most important. I agree with you. If you keep both hand on a short stick you are an inviting target, however, I found that a transitioning from a single to double handed grips can add some power that can't be generated up-close through stick tip speed. There are time for a single handed grip, and a time for double handed grip....it's a matter of learning the correct time for each. The other situation is with short heavy weapons (shot guns, M-16s etc.) that are awkward to swing with one hand and must utilize the single handed grip more often to utilize the weapon. Have a great day, Jeff (drjeffallen@home.com) > From: "arlan and angel sanford" > Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 19:13:51 -0600 > Subject: eskrima: Dos with dogs > > My observations on Dos Manos styles ( by the way, Krabi- Krabong uses a lot > of Dos Manos type moves) I find the Dos Manos moves very strong, but ( a big > but ) slow to regroup and restrike compared to someone good with a regular > grip, a big disadvantage as the range closes. Also, when I fight someone who > is using a double handed grip, their hands are a very easy target, I'd say I > can hit the hands almost at will. The exception seems to be when the double > handed fighter has a much longer weapon. It also seems to me both hands on > one weapon reduces your attacks, since you can only use both hands on one > attack. ------------------------------ From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 15:26:51 EDT Subject: eskrima: Dos Manos System original Post. Jeff Allen, this is your original post, << >> Since I was one of the participants/instructors on the tape, I'll try to >> give a little bit of insight to to the Dos Manos System. When the DMS >>system was organized, most people just weren't using two hand on the stick >>and the many system were, and still are, discussing the FMA as a bladed >>style **some are blade only**...but unless the FMA style is BLADE ONLY, >>there is no reason whatsoever not to use two hands on the stick. You mentioned here FMA and if I remember the HOCK studied under Remy Presas so this is FMA related system. >>The punyo strike with two hand are not dependent on the size of the stick. >>I would hate to fight someone with a umbrella in my hand, but if you let me >>have two hand on it an use the punyo, it has much more realistic combat >>applications. >>I believe the DMS system has struck a nerve with people because opens up a >>whole new frontier in their stick work (blade work also if you pay >>attention) >>The takedown with two hand on the stick are numerous and devestating. THEY >> HURT MORE! Why? When people use two hands on the stick for takedown, >>they use their bodies in the throw/takedowns rather than their arms. I >>personally don't like being the uke *bad guy!* on the techniques because of >>the torque that people can apply. One of the reasons that people like punyo >> hooking techniques it that they are more viable in a double handed situation >>than in single stick techniques. The two ribs that I have had cracked from >>the stick have NOT come from single-handed stick techniques -- they came >>from two handed stick techques. Techniques and terminology is FMA so I assume this FMA. >>Many of the chokes and locks that people are wowed with are variation of dos >>manos techniques. The transition from single-hand to double-hand techniques >> make these possible. This transition is one of the most valuable skills >>that fighters can learn. People have already discussed the differend hand >>positioning. The way you put this post together is clear to me you are relating your system to the FMA so I react accordingly to the principle and philosophy of the FMA. I am not trying to create anything I just want to point some clarrification of waht you meants. Okay I will answer your other post. Gumagalang ng Lubos/with Respect Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Laguna Arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research Center USA ------------------------------ From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 15:55:03 EDT Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #176 Jeff Allen, << Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet, >> I guess that's one of the problems with an internet -- it tough to use your hand for expression and it tough to demonstrate. We would probably agree on >>99% of the information over a quiet table and good food and drink. I guess you are right, it show to your post. >> But, your post was filled with underhanded insult to me in particular. Those were not appropriate and not needed based on my orginal post. But I>>'ll try to cover content first. I am sorry, is not my intention . >> I don't believe that any system will work just on it's techniques. It takes creativity on the part of the teacher and the students. just as you stated: "Non-sense, single handed as effective of double handed punyo.again is depend who is using it or applying the techniques" <---depending on who is >> using it or applying the technique. I totally agree. >> One of the ideas, that I tried to get across, was opens peoples eyes to the transition between single and double handed grips. You can't keep your hand in one spot on the stick all of the time and have it work all of the time. I would bet that many students that have studied for years have never been introduced to a comprehensive study of double handed techniqes. We have a core of good veterans on the list, but there are also a lot of new participants that haven't had a chance to travel down the same road. I've hit some pot holes in the road that I don't want anyone else to have to >> experience. You cant assume that as a mojority, maybe few school, especially to those people that study only from Instructional tape. >>The SDMS system is part of a larger combative philosophy. We have very few people just study dos manos and say "I got it". It a way to expand people's weapon work. There's a time for single handed techniques and a time for >>double stick techniques. We have that techniques too, everyone in FMA should know that. >> >>Here's were you were insulting to me: >>You stated: "As a Filipino Martial Arts stylist, I dont believed that yoo are over confident to your system." Am I not a FMA stylist??? If overconfidence is a problem, we should probably just close down this list >>and go home and not share ideas. But why the DMS is used Filipino Terminology, and I assume are because you are in the FMA discussion. >> You stated: "First of all, let me ask you this when DMS developed? Because FMA is not developed yesterday is developed centuries ago...But it does not means that not exist prior to the DMS developments." I'm not an idiot nor do I believe that Hock is...Did you think that I/we have lived in a vacuum. I have tried to study the history of each of the arts that I have studied. >>Please don't make a giant leap about my knowledge of martial arts. I dont I just need a few anwer to the question. >> I have an ego, but not not when it come to martial systems. If it keeps you alive, use it and be happy -- I'm a university professor and a natural sceptic of everything. The SDMS system is ANOTHER way for people to stay alive. It's another item for people's backpack of ideas. Yes, I fought full-contact with sticks on the East Coast from 1990-1993. I have been taken down with both single and double stick techniques. I will still stand by the fact that you can take someone down harder with a double handed techniques than with a single handed techniques....you naturally use your body more than your arms when doing double handed techniques, and it's quicker to teach people in the grappling range. There's a time for single >>sticks and a time for double sticks. I dont aske you to draggs your title and your proffession to the discussion, all I want is the anwer the question and clarifies you post. Your experience is not answer to the question, I dont really care if you are proffessor, or a grand teacher, I dont think is relevant to the topics. >> Additionally, I like this statement: "I have no doubt that the system is probably worth learning. Nice to know that, other FMA also have recieved also a tremendous wowed from different crowd. Its is again depend on what system you favor." <--- probably worth >>learning. Thanks for the vote of confidence in the system. You are more than welcome, Proffessor. >> My post did not mention superiority. My post did not mention that the SDMS invented dos manos in the FMA. My post did not suggest that people plant both hand on the stick to survive (for example I stated: This transition is one of the most valuable skills that fighters can learn." My post did try to help explain why it was created. FMA student's at Hock's seminars and in his classes did not study it. Therefore, the gap was filled for them. If >>you question my personal skill, knowledge of attitude about it, talk to Hock. Why I should talk to HOCK, he is not the one who post that mistake is you, Proffessor, Is really dont change my question. >> If you already have it.....wonderful. It's easy to pick apart examples given in any e-mail. We all have a tough time answering people "what if" and "I saw work once" and "I can do this" situations..it's tough to predicting how people will read your examples over the internet. At the end of your critique you stated: :...Its really nice to watch, to open a new ideas." Several members of the list stated that they watched Hock's tapes and liked them. My suggestion to people is to watch Hock's SDMS >>tapes.....so please, watch them and be open to new ideas. I dont need to watch it this Tapes for me to agree with you. >> I will confidently stand by the original post and provide details if you would like them and we can have a long discussion. Just give me time to put on my flame proof underwear. I will not answer insults of my intelligence and will not defend my grammar and spelling. If you want to know my martial arts background ask me or the people that know me....don't make assumptions. If you don't like what a "student of the teacher" says, ask the teacher (see >> my last post). You posted to the public, and it happen that I am one of the public, so I think I deserve an answer. Dont you think. >>I believe the DMS system has struck a nerve with people because opens up a >>whole new frontier in their stick work (blade work also if you pay >>attention). Your inherent response to my original post seem to be...."but my sytem also has this". Wonderful. This list and the participants should be on the list to share ideas and not to piss on trees. None of the questions that you posed were constructive of positive, they just ended in an insult.....meant or otherwise. If there are question about the system, question about particular techniques, or combative philosophies please let's continue the discussion. But let's not continue an arguement of mine's better that >>yours. The tree's are just getting wet. Then we should be very careful to what we said to the public, if you dont want to be question by FMA critics. Especially if we are talking other Martial arts we should name them, so we can avoid insulting other arts. But I strongly believed that DMS is related to FMA.. If not is my bad.. But if you meant to take this down to the quite table with drinks and food, I am on, anytime I think I can eat a little and drink. Gumagalang ng Lubos/ with all respect, Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Laguna Arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research Center USA PS. Thanks Tim, for the nice words you put together on my Seminar review. Thanks Also to our Archbishop EBrooks, I missed working out with you. Thanks, Guro Abon. ------------------------------ From: "al sardinas" Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 16:12:47 -0400 Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #176 My esteemed Dr. Allen if you met my instructor, Gat Puno Baet in person you would determine that he was not trying to insult you. I have known him over 10 years and believe me has the upmost respect for other FMA systems and even other martial arts (Chnese, Korean, Japanese, etc.). The only difficulty he has sometimes is expressing himself in English and he would be first to admit it. His passion for the FMA's can sometimes overshadow his means of expressing himself. especially when it is not his native language. I hope this explanation is acceptable to you. If I may get to my subject of my email, you wrote: "One of the ideas, that I tried to get across, was opens peoples eyes to the transition between single and double handed grips. You can't keep your hand in one spot on the stick all of the time and have it work all of the time." My simple question or answer to this statement is - Why Not? You also wrote: "Yes, I fought full-contact with sticks on the East Coast from 1990-1993. I have been taken down with both single and double stick techniques. I will still stand by the fact that you can take someone down harder with a double handed techniques than with a single handed techniques....you naturally use your body more than your arms when doing double handed techniques, and it's quicker to teach people in the grappling range. There's a time for single sticks and a time for double sticks." I have to admit that I am confused when after reading this, are you referring to double stick techniques as the same as double handed techniques? Or do double stick techniques mean a stick in each hand? You see even a well educated person as yourself can not be clear all the time to the average reader. Anyway, I will go out on the limb and say whether it's a stick in each hand or two hands on one stick, single handed techniques can take you down harder. My simple explanation (not complete) of just using your theory of using the body is that more of the body weight can be directed in a single stick technique vs. a stick in each hand. Quick example - - a 200 lb body can direct 200 lbs of force in each strike vs 100 lbs of force per stick in each hand. In reference to a double handed technique (two hands on stick), the extra hand on the stick neutralizes some of the speed and power that the body develops when only one hand on the stick. I agree with what you wrote: "It's easy to pick apart examples given in any e-mail." However, this is not my purpose of my email. Respectfully, Al Sardinas Student of Garimot System of Arnis _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 14:55:34 PDT Subject: eskrima: Fw: Alliance Drug Free Open Martial Arts Tournament - May 5, 2001 Forwarding... Ray - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Alliance Ohio Drug Free Open Martial Arts Tournament - May 5, 2001 On May 5, 2001 the Alliance Ohio Police Department and Alliance City Schools will sponsor the Alliance Drug Free Open Martial Arts Tournament. All the proceeds from the tournament will support area drug education programs such as: Kick Drugs Out of Alliance (KDOA) and Students Against Destructive Decisions (SADD). I could really use your help in encouraging people to attend. Would you please send out Email to the PMAA membership asking competitors, judges, and spectators to consider attending our tournament. Right now our pre-registrations are lagging and these are very worthwhile programs which need the financial aid we hope this tournament will provide. For more information about the tournament follow the link below: http://hometown.aol.com/kdoa2/tournament1.html Thanks for your consideration. Respectfully, Jeff Helaney ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 17:24:23 PDT Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #177 **************************************** To unsubscribe from the eskrima-digest send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and the Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.