From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #178 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Thur, 12 April 2001 Vol 08 : Num 178 In this issue: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #177 eskrima: Dong Cuesta Seminar in NJ eskrima: Cutting Practice eskrima: Advertisement eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #177 eskrima: Dos Manos eskrima: DMS two-hands hubbub eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #176 eskrima: . ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1300 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Mike Inay (1944-2000), Founder of the Inayan System of Eskrima. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima-Digest at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Johnaleen" Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 20:53:43 -0400 Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #177 Blush... i re read my post when it came in and you can tell i went without sleep for sometime before i sent it... please forgive all the typos and mis-spellings in it and especially to HOCK for calling him a bird of pray instead... "The ever, never, getting enough sleep, dyslexic Ms J...." ------------------------------ From: SolAndes@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 21:09:49 EDT Subject: eskrima: Dong Cuesta Seminar in NJ Hi, Master Dong Cuesta of Doce Pares Eskrima will be teaching a seminar on April 21, from 10am to 2pm with a short break for lunch. The seminar will be held at the College Ave. Gym in New Brunswick, NJ (on Rutgers campus). The cost of the seminar will be $25 for those who register by 4/19/01 and $30 at the door. Guro Dong has over 30 years of experience in the filipino arts and is one of the highest ranking Doce Pares practitioners in the world. He will be teaching all aspects of the Doce Pares system including: single and double stick, knife, espada y daga, pangamot, and dumog. This is going to be a great seminar and everyone will take away something valuable! Please contact me for more info. Regards, Ken Andes solandes@aol.com ------------------------------ From: DAHLDP@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 22:36:17 EDT Subject: eskrima: Cutting Practice In response to your question about cutting practice, I've tried several different targets. First, I do a lot of hiking and have performed quite a bit of trail clearing with a kukri, bowie knife or machete style blade. I really like the kukri for ease of use and tremendous cutting power. Cold Steel's top-of-the-line model will go through a 1 1/2 to 2 inch branch or sapling. Cutting these targets forces you to calculate an optimum strike angle and follow through. It also builds endurance when you are continuously cutting on a 3-4 hour hike. I have also participated in some cutting demonstrations where the object was to slice through multiple one inch, free hanging, hemp ropes. They are lightly taped together. The first few times you try this, you usually strike the ropes with a portion of the blade that is too far forward (too close to the tip). The result is that the ropes tend to slide off the forward curve of a knife like a bowie. On my first tries I also failed to follow through smoothly and the result was more like "hacking" at the ropes, rather than slicing through. As you do more cutting, you learn to approach the ropes with a correct blade angle and make contact closer to the handguard than the tip. You also develop better blade speed and follow through. Another type of cutting practice can be had if you are a hunter. When you finish cleaning a game animal like an elk, deer or wild pig, you are usually left with a few portions that are not desirable for human consumption. For example, the neck meat on an elk or pig is not especially good, even if you grind it up for burger. As a result, before you dedicate it to dog food or the like, you can hang it up and try some cutting practice. It gives you a good feel for how much force is necessary to cut meat and how a blade reacts to bone and other heavier/harder tissue. It also demonstrates how important a good handguard is when thrusting, to prevent your hand from sliding onto the blade. Lastly, the fact that your hand and knife handle are usually pretty messy forces you to evaluate what types of handle materials and grip styles work best under such conditions. Some friends and I have also tried cutting heavy, multiple layer cardboard shipping containers. We've found that these force you to emphasize power in your stroke because without it, the heavy layers of cardboard stop your blade pretty quickly. I'm only a beginner at this, but I thought these examples might be a starting point for the discussion you seek to promote. Dave Dahl (DAHLDP@AOL.Com) ------------------------------ From: "Marc Denny" Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 21:30:52 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Advertisement A Howl of Greeting to All: Jeff & Arlan wrote: > Arlan, > > I think the transition from single to double handed is most important. I > agree with you. If you keep both hand on a short stick you are an inviting > target, however, I found that a transitioning from a single to double handed > grips can add some power that can't be generated up-close through stick tip > speed. There are time for a single handed grip, and a time for double > handed grip....it's a matter of learning the correct time for each. > > The other situation is with short heavy weapons (shot guns, M-16s etc.) that > are awkward to swing with one hand and must utilize the single handed grip > more often to utilize the weapon. > > Have a great day, > > Jeff > (drjeffallen@home.com) > > > From: "arlan and angel sanford" > > Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 19:13:51 -0600 > > Subject: eskrima: Dos with dogs > > > > My observations on Dos Manos styles ( by the way, Krabi- Krabong uses a lot > > of Dos Manos type moves) I find the Dos Manos moves very strong, but ( a big > > but ) slow to regroup and restrike compared to someone good with a regular > > grip, a big disadvantage as the range closes. Also, when I fight someone who > > is using a double handed grip, their hands are a very easy target, I'd say I > > can hit the hands almost at will. The exception seems to be when the double > > handed fighter has a much longer weapon. It also seems to me both hands on > > one weapon reduces your attacks, since you can only use both hands on one > > attack. A very nice example of what Salty is talking about can be found on our "A Dog Brothers Gathering of the Pack" wherein using a single stick he fights a bokken (ie shaped hardwood) and breaks the guy's hand. The bokken was less than standard size, but longer than Arlan's stick. I also would note that Top Dog feels that the hardest weapon he faced was the regular bokken-- see e.g. DB #6 wherein Shark Dog wields the bokken. Woof, Crafty Dog ------------------------------ From: "Jeff Allen" Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 11:38:46 -0500 Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #177 Johnaleen, > From: "Johnaleen" >I believe Hawk dose not teach FMA nor is DMS an FMA style... the real >question i have here is What Style of FMA have you studied and learned >enough of that you are comparing it to DMS in such a way as to imply that >most FMA styles apply to the below statement ? I have studied and worked with Hock since 1994. I think that he would be confortable with my insight and discussion of the SDMS system and FMA. I offered my opinion originally, because I was involved in the tapes that were discussed. Hock is not a member of the list so I offered my opinion to further the list discussion. I have Personally seen the system strick a nerve with people and open up new frontiers in their stick work while teaching with Hock around the country - these are people from all sorts of martial background including Filipino Martial Artist from most of the styles that are represented on this list. > so back to my first and main Question here for you... What style of FMA did > you say you have studied and learned enough to compare DMS to? I didn't say...but I'll try to answer your question. The answer to your question is really based on your perception of qualifications. I formally studied under Sifu Bill Gebhardt, Inosanto/Illustrisimo Kali. I have earned a second degree black belt in Kombatan (formerly Arnis De Mano), and a second degree black belt in Modern Arnis. I have studied FMA since 1990. I also hold a fifth degree black belt in Archipelago Combatives under Guro Hock Hochheim and title of Vice-President of the Scientific Fighting Congress Archipelago Combative Division. Is this what you need? You didn't ask about rankings under other martial systems -- Do you need those? Do you want to know the number of hours that I studied each week or year? The number of years that I have taught? Is there a set qualifications needed before I can make comparisons? Are more FMA systems studied better or should I have studied one style? I can't remember anyone on the list being asked state their qualification before being able to make comparisons between martial systems. If you do not believe that I am qualified to "compare". You are welcome to ask Hock the same questions HockHoch@aol.com. Please remember, that this is a FMA forum. Thus the point of the list is to discuss FMA. The SDMS that Hock created doesn't claim to be a FMA system -- it does have strong roots there in my opinion. >... I know that i have paid attention and no >doubts most on this digest know the realty's of this stick really >representing a blade to the point that some of us do live blade training... Some of the time a stick is just a stick and doesn't have to represent a blade. I believe that is important to train with the attitude of using the stick to represent a blade AND using a stick just as a stick. Have a great day, Jeff Allen (drjeffallen@home.com) Gat Puno Baet, For your last post, thank you. I have tried to respond to the question that you asked. > From: GatPuno@aol.com > Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 15:26:51 EDT > Subject: eskrima: Dos Manos System original Post. > > You mentioned here FMA and if I remember the HOCK studied under Remy Presas > so this is FMA related system. Hock studied FMA under GM Ernest Presas, Professor Remy Presas and others. Here's what Hock posted in Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #175: "I started teaching the military and police a course called SDMS years ago, which is single and double handed impact weapon blocking, striking and grappling. The "S" for single-hand grip, the "D" for double-hand grip. While the martial arts favor exotic names, the military/police community favors acronyms. I am pushing the limits by using the word "manos" with them, but so far so good. "SDMS only resembles Filipino material at times. Again, I am not, and do not teach the Filipino martilal arts, therefore I hope not to offend or upset anyone." I think that it's a tough to discuss....on one hand people will say (if you don't use the traditional words) that you are stealing and calling FMA something else and if you do use traditional terminology people will say that what you are doing is not true to the art. Hock is not teaching FMA, but you are right....there is a base in FMA. As your students say of you: "Please talk to him...you would like what he says.". His material, in my opinion, is much different than FMA, but (in my opinion) there is no reason to throw away good techniques in FMA just to say that it isn't -- It does resemble it at times. He does and will always continue praise his base of study in FMA, but has combined his other experience to create a combative system that has been well accepted. I'm certainly willing to answer critism and questions about this material. Filipino martial artist will enjoy working with Hock and will find themselve in very comfortable company. anytime I think I can eat a little and drink. I would be honored to buy your food and drink and learn from you. With respect, Jeff Allen drjeffallen@home.com Al, I've tried to answer your questions, also please see my response to Gat Puno Baet. > > From: "al sardinas" > Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 16:12:47 -0400 > Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #176 > > My esteemed Dr. Allen if you met my instructor, Gat Puno Baet in person you > would determine that he was not trying to insult you. I have known him over > 10 years and believe me has the upmost respect for other FMA systems and > even other martial arts (Chnese, Korean, Japanese, etc.). The only > difficulty he has sometimes is expressing himself in English and he would be > first to admit it. His passion for the FMA's can sometimes overshadow his > means of expressing himself. especially when it is not his native language. > I hope this explanation is acceptable to you. I have heard wonderful things about Gat Puno Baet. His second post was much easier for me respond to. As I stated originally, I think the problem is the damn internet, my typing and communication skills, the lack of non-verbals signals and the English language. I can see and understand the pride in FMA. :-) > If I may get to my subject of my email, you wrote: "One of the ideas, that I > tried to get across, was opens peoples eyes to the > transition between single and double handed grips. You can't keep your > hand in one spot on the stick all of the time and have it work all of the > time." >My simple question or answer to this statement is - Why Not? It limits you. Why would you give yourself only one hand on the stick for everything rather than gripping the stick with two hands in SOME cases? It also helpful for students to learn two handed techniques when they pick up a long, large, or awkward impact weapon. Also, a supported block with two hand is sometime necessary to keep from seeing stars. > You also wrote: "Yes, I fought full-contact with sticks on the East Coast > from 1990-1993. I have been taken down with both single and double stick > techniques. I will still stand by the fact that you can take someone down > harder with a double handed techniques than with a single handed techniques....you naturally use your > body more than your arms when doing double handed techniques, and it's > quicker to teach people in the grappling range. There's a time for single > sticks and a time for double sticks. I have to admit that I am confused when after reading this, are you > referring to double stick techniques as the same as double handed > techniques? Or do double stick techniques mean a stick in each hand? . Sorry....my poor typing skills: double STICK techniqes should have been written as double HAND techniques. My mind melts after a while. >You see even a well educated person as yourself can not be clear all the time to the > average reader. I'm sorry that you thought that I was critical of typing or communication skills. Mine are poors and I'm lazy in my typing. >Anyway, I will go out on the limb and say whether it's a > stick in each hand or two hands on one stick, single handed techniques can > take you down harder. My simple explanation (not complete) of just using > your theory of using the body is that more of the body weight can be > directed in a single stick technique vs. a stick in each hand. Quick example > - - a 200 lb body can direct 200 lbs of force in each strike vs 100 lbs of > force per stick in each hand. In reference to a double handed technique (two > hands on stick), the extra hand on the stick neutralizes some of the speed > and power that the body develops when only one hand on the stick. It's a matter of opinion. We all develop our opinions over time. It would be much better if we could virtually demonstrate rather than write it down. I won't try to change your mind with words. > I agree with what you wrote: "It's easy to pick apart examples given in any > e-mail." However, this is not my purpose of my email. As I stated to Gat Puno Baet, we would probably agree on 99% of the topics in person we just might disagree on how to get there. We just have to work harder at understanding over the internet. > Respectfully, > Al Sardinas > Student of Garimot System of Arnis Thank you for your time and thoughtful comments, Jeff Allen (drjeffallen@home.com) ------------------------------ From: "Michael Koblic" Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 21:57:33 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Dos Manos I would like to thank all those who kindly responded to my questions on the Dos Manos system. I regret that I seem to have started another minor war. Just a few comments before Ray calls a halt: 1) I would love to take part in one of Mr. Hochheim's seminars. Unfortunately the nearest is about 3000km from here. Unless he does a seminar in Western Canda sometime in the future the sad fact is that the time, distances and Canadian $ make such event an unrealistic proposition. I have all three DMS videos and like them. 2) It seems to me that the system is made for the heavier weapon - let's say a pickaxe handle! Assuming the opponent is armed similarly would one start the fight in a largo mano range (power and reach+, lousy recovery) or should one start in the "high grip" (see Tuhon McGrath post), try to pick off the opponent's swing with a block and close ASAP following with the puno strikes, takedowns and the "vertical baseball". For a short fat person this seems an attractive strategy - is it feasible? Against someone with a lighter weapon (and ability to smack hands with it like Arlan) should one try to stay in largo mano? 3) The reason I was interested in the effect of the parallel puno strikes was that one may not always have the time for the takedown-baseball finish, particularly if there are multiple opponents. I do not find it helpful to determine the power of the strike on the heavy bag. Judging how far I can make it swing is meaningless. Maybe one should try the TKD breaking boards... 4) As to the bladed art v. stick art: I was interested to see many Dos Manos techniques using a long sword in the Talhoffer's book. Maybe they did not sharpen those things in those days as much, or only the distal few inches or used gloves or something. Mike Koblic, Campbell River, BC ------------------------------ From: "Stephen Jones" Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 08:33:47 Subject: eskrima: DMS two-hands hubbub Hi, Hmmm.. on this DMS 'double-grip' thread just a few thoughts: I learned 'Dos Manos' systems, but these use two sticks or blades, as part of FMA training and teach tactics/coordination for fighting with two weapons at the same time. Personally, I think someone who doesn't teach the FMA shouldn't use a name coming from it, even 'Dos Manos'. Also in demos we, now and then, get someone to use double-handed stick strikes, as it allows for a lot of heroic type disarm's and big throws from a single-hand gripped stick (or two sticks). As there is no countering 'live' hand on the attacker, its possible to pin or trap both the arms a lot more easily. Having the other hand free is also useful to control your environment. ie. often people throw things at u before closing, might start talking then grab the weapon, or u might want a can of mace, a riot shield, use a torch, dial a phone or just hold onto someone, or walk your dog. This is why security people around the world prefer single handed batons. If you find single-handed grip techniques difficult- train more is one solution :)! All the best for Easter to everyone! Stevo. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ From: Tim Rivera Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 08:12:40 -0500 Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #176 > From: "Ernest Westbrook" > > This is an excellent begining to a review. I am in complete agreement > with you regarding GP Abon, he is an excellent FMA teach and a greater > human being. There is definately a lot of joy and laughter when he is > teaching his arts. thanks- i thought it was important to start off that way. when i first met him i started to find out what kind of person he was before i ever saw his skill. > We are quite lucky to have him posting on this forum. Hopefully > more people will take the time to reads his posts carefully and think about > what he has written. He definately knows what he is talking about both in > terms of history and the actual presentation of his arts. i agree. additionally, i want to thank al sardinas for distributing the florida demo on cd- after i saw that, i thought 'i /have/ to bring him in for a seminar.' > This sounds like the standard approach that he takes at a seminar. > GP Abon wants everyone to get involved. i really enjoyed it, as did everyone in attendance. very refreshing. > I wish i could have been there, I have only seen the first of the moro-moro > dances. the second and third build off of the first, adding in more strikes at the beginning, and teaching the progressive ways of dealing with an attack. great stuff- i can't wait to learn more, i just need to work hard on what i have. > >system, and combined the knife with the Buno for some really fun >stuff. > > Damn it, I am jealous, he actually showed that stuff. We had to > find it for ourselves after his seminars with us. great stuff. counters to knife attakcs with buno throws, and counters to the throws- some tight, painful locks. > Really is a lot more understandable when you are out on the floor trading > blows with him isn't it? From the sidelines it seems like it would be so > easy to tag GP Abon, but the real proof is in act of trying to get a stick > on him! You can't, with sort of any consistency > and without getting tagged in return! 'understandable,' in a sense. :) when you see it from the sidelines, you think "ok, i see what he's doing, it shouldn't be hard to tag him." it's a whole new game when you're facing him. it's much more subtle from that view. i almost feel insulting at times because i pull the strike (without thinking) before i come 'into contact' with guro, thinking that i might hit him. then he smiles and uses his left hand to pass the stick by, showing you that you were close, but a miss is a miss. incredible sense of distancing. i was even lucky enough to see how it applied empty hand as well. > I am hopeful that some of our > friends here on the Digest will take advantage of the opportunities to train > with people such as GP Abon > and others who are not as well known in the media hyped publications. i'm in 100% agreement. tim p.s. - several of the attendees are subscribed, so if you were impressed by something i left out, speak up. ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 6:59:58 PDT Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #178 **************************************** To unsubscribe from the eskrima-digest send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. 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