From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #184 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Mon, 16 April 2001 Vol 08 : Num 184 In this issue: Re: eskrima: P-T Gun Seguidas eskrima: Hock's "new and improved" FMA eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #183 eskrima: Lets move on, Sorry Rey. eskrima: Let's Move On, But... eskrima: Thanks for the Article Info/ Mr. Geralds Boggs eskrima: cool is as cool does eskrima: Re: Mike Kolbic- Master of Kegogi-Do-Masters Bios eskrima: Re: Hock's SDMS eskrima: . ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1300 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Mike Inay (1944-2000), Founder of the Inayan System of Eskrima. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima-Digest at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 7:49:37 PDT Subject: Re: eskrima: P-T Gun Seguidas > It involves these theories: > 1. Extreme close quarters drawing that presupposes a disarm attempt. > 2. Shooting with a wounded arm. > 3. Shooting around awkward barricade positions. > 4. Shooting from the ground against multiple close opponents. Sounds like good stuff. Tuhon Bill, have you studied with Jim Cirillo, member of the former NYC PD 'stakeout team'? Jim teaches things similar to the above based on his shootout experiences from the stakeout team of the 70s(?). Not set down and taught in movement sequences, but in things you practice while at the range. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: "jose saguisabal" Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 07:44:22 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Hock's "new and improved" FMA Guro Abon, you wrote "I was holding my breath not to comment anymore in this SDMS." Now, I'd like to join you... It looks like Hock and his representative here have very limited exposure to the Filipino Martial Arts, as I am willing to bet it is composed mostly of seminar experiences. There is so much more to the FMAs than what you see in the seminars. Most Filipinos do NOT teach by seminar, so in order to know what is taught in the FMAs you have to actually study with one. To say that you are teaching what is not being taught in the FMAs is one thing. But when you say that your "extensive research" consists of training with the Presases, you really haven't seen much of the _Filipino_ Filipino Martial Arts. Most FMAs do not look like the Presas styles. I wonder where these "new findings" originated. And please don't say from military and police work. You're talking to a former GI and cop. SEAL/UDT/Ranger talk doesn't fool me. It is a slap in the face, by the way, for a former FMA instructor who carries rank most FMA's don't offer to say that he has "improved" the FMAs, especially one who has been in the FMA's for such a short time. And, as my instructor often says, "you're previous experience don't count". What I take exception to is how someone with a limited exposure to the Filipino art who was already touted as an "expert" is now changing the face of his art, which I am sure isn't much different to what he was doing before, and now he has folks with even less experience making statements about the Filipino arts they really know nothing about! (Note: I read the article about Hock as well. It was truly condescending to the real FMA representatives.) Hock's attitude towards the FMA's leads me to believe that after years of studying, someone must have given him an "eye-opener" and now he wants to distance himself from his training. If I am right, don't blame the training... Anyone whose feathers may be a little ruffled by Mr. Hockheim's claims has a right to be. It's sort of how you feel when a family member talks bad about the family. You know, in Filipino tradition, when a man has a problem with another man, he challenges him. That usually kept folks on their toes and watching what they say. I guess the absence of the challenge in the Western FMA tradition is the reason why we have so many new and improved styles. Jay (Hi, Jay!) Get 250 color business cards for FREE! http://businesscards.lycos.com/vp/fastpath/ ------------------------------ From: Badger Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 11:23:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #183 Is there an ultimate Martial Art? Are there 'martial secrets' still to be found/discovered? Or are all these 'inside' one's self? The older I get and the more I learn about the martial way, I find things distilling into a few observations, not meaning to pontificate... To be the best MA that you can be: Learn your limitations, work to improve them. Those that found a limitation and made it -stronger-, even to the point where that limit was stronger than most people's strength, often find the best 'edge'. Know your strengths. Balance them. Seek your limits and strengths in both physical and mental, and above all spiritual, and do the above. Often a 'spiritual' limit is the hardest to overcome. Examples may be, fear of 'freezing' in combat; fear of not doing 'enough' training; fear of overanalysis; fear of overtraining; fear of aging, and mortailty, and injury. Other aspects; not being able to see one's self clearly to discern strengths and weaknesses; limiting one's abilities based on false assumptions (not knowing one's limits??). This is where outside help is advantageous, use of a coach or trainer. See the methods used by the SEALS and the training and approach used by those doing the "Eco-challenge" for what a 'limit' means. Just some musings on a slow monday. - -B ___ baj7dvirginia[dot]edu Arnis Lastra, Arnis Lanada ------------------------------ From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 12:25:38 EDT Subject: eskrima: Lets move on, Sorry Rey. Last and lets move on. Our system the Garimot Arnis/Buno/Hilot is not the Ultimate style out there, Or the best of the best. But I would guarantee you one thing that this system is an art of combat for reality based. I am not living in fantasy, like you speculate, I live with the reality and numerous experienced of combat, street, full contact "no padded" stick fighting, Knife attack, mass attack and so on. Getting hit and more hit, is part of the fighting, but I am still here ( all I am saying is we are working hard to fights back not to get hit at all), I would not turn my back to someone trying to kill me. I can get kill before they can stop me.. You are right I dont know little of your system, that why I wanted to know more. But if you keep trying to tell me something else. I am sorry I wasted your time. I would follow your advice I will see if I can buy the tape and study it myself, I just hate to buy things and later its a bunch of garbage that why I just wanted know more about it. Sure it interesteing the way you guys praised it. I dont mean to get everyone upset by asking question. I also sure that you guys lost you cool when you fights, it show to your answers. I dont need to leave you an advice you know what your capable of, also its really show what type of Martial artist are you.. To all Members I am very sorry, I would not comments anymore to this SDMS thread the two SDMS members is practiced to much of sensitivity training. I hope I dont offended some of you for me being such a digger to find more answer to what is in there. I found nothing so far. So case closed let move on. Thanks Rey for being cool moderator. Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Laguna Arnis Federation International US HArimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research Center USA << Gat, All I can do is laugh regarding your last post. First off, it seems that you are the only one who thinks that your style is the "ultimate". You act as though the SDMS course is some sort of threat to you or your style yet you know very little about it. As for my training, I am have trained in several styles including Serrada Escrima, Modern Arnis, Kombatan as well as Kenpo Karate, Kung Fu San Soo, Hung Gar Kung Fu, Hawaiian Lua, and Kosho Shorei Ryu Kenpo. I have also been training with Hock >> ------------------------------ From: "al sardinas" Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 12:41:16 -0400 Subject: eskrima: Let's Move On, But... Regarding the Dos Manos thing, I agree with Ray and Professor Jeff Allen it's time to move on. And thanks Jeff for providing all the sources for further information on SDMS. I do see that you are listed on Hock's website and do take note that there is an instructor in the Ft. Pierce, Florida area. However this is where I stop with the thanks and just like to make some points especially for certified instructor Mr. Steve Zorn. Gat Puno has never in public or private refer to our system as the "ultimate", however, he would love to fight anybody or any style to test his skills. This he does not shy away from.And as for real world vs fantasy world, Gat Puno can hit you for real without being hit. I can't but he can. Mr. Zorn, you have listed some of the several styles you have learned. Are you saying that in all of them there are no skill levels that exists where a practitioner of the "art" could not hit someone without being hit? Or is it just your knowledge of these various systems just superficial? Finally, and hopefully to clear up this matter on my instructor's writings, GP Baet is a proud Filipino who does not hesitate to question or defend against anything or anyone who he thinks depreciates or disrespects anything Filipino whether it's martial art, a custom or even another Filipino. And again I must state that GP Baet may at sometimes have difficulty in cleary expressing himself in English. If we all could read and understand Tagalog there would be no problem. Respectfully, Al Sardinas Student of Garimot System of Arnis ------------------------------ From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 12:33:45 EDT Subject: eskrima: Thanks for the Article Info/ Mr. Geralds Boggs Nice and clean information.. FMA is on top of the list to HOCK repertoire. Thanks Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet << From: Gerald Boggs Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 19:54:01 -0700 Subject: eskrima: quoting Hock Greetings for those that are following the DMS thread. The Hock article referenced from Black Belt magazine. Here's the paragraph in its entirety "In 1987 I began studying the Philippine martial arts. I immediately saw that our military and police training courses lacked a "stick-dedicated" component and skill-developing drills such as those taught in the Philippines, But even though the Philippine arts had some solutions, they weren't doing the crafty things that our experienced police officers and military pugilists were. Additionally, the Filipinos, like the Japanese, tend to become too "artsy" at times, which can make their techniques insubstantial in the chaos of combat. Lesson learned: To create an outstanding stick-combat course that will best ensure a person's >> ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 10:24:47 PDT Subject: eskrima: cool is as cool does > on. Thanks Rey for being cool moderator. Hey, I'm just a cool guy in general... :) Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: "Johnaleen" Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 13:34:54 -0400 Subject: eskrima: Re: Mike Kolbic- Master of Kegogi-Do-Masters Bios "Grin"..... you know Mike if we take the Aiki and add the Daikon we are half way there to miso soup... I also know a good kimchi recipe that both those ingredients are called for... yes i know normally its done with cabbage but there are many things that they make kimchi into in So Korea... the cabbage style is only one of many.. now if i had the kitchen knife skills that Buzz Grover has, i could open a restaurant.. but there is no way i can cut food as fast as he dose... Maybe you, buzz and i should go into business and own the first... FMA- Aiki- Daiko restaurant Though i will never be a Master in " Kegogi-Do "... I love the beast to much to Kill it.. Ms J....... Oriental world traveling Cook Lifetime Eskrima Student Teacher-Healer Oh speaking of Masters... F.A.T.E. organizations Teachers have compiled a list of Masters for the Organization, these are people and teachers that have been part of the organizations teachers positive growth in the arts and there healing paths though the arts... its a working process and it has not even been listed yet but... since you all put up with me the most i will share it with you here first... Even the masters on the list though most new i was working on it, they have not been informed yet that its on line... though this week they will be receiving there letters... here is the address... http://www.f-a-t-e.org/Bios/masters%20Bios/Masters.html There are 40 Masters on this list, 10 of which i don't have the information yet for and a bio set up.. i am still waiting for information from them or there main students that have submitted there names for the list... feel free to pass the address above out I also put a guest book there on the site yesterday... tis fresh so nothing is on it yet... feel free to use it though... Ms J bows deeply to you.. CEO/F.A.T.E. 1-888-526-4626 Victims Program FATE@f-a-t-e.org www.f-a-t-e.org ------------------------------ From: "Ernest Westbrook" Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 18:50:28 -0000 Subject: eskrima: Re: Hock's SDMS "Jeff Allen" wrote: >The last issue posed these questions.... > >>How good this SDMS? Is this the ultimate? It's sound like that >> really >>he created/discovered a new Martial Arts that will conquer >> the world. I >>just want to reminds myself to study hard to my home >> work so If I face >>one of the SDMS guys I am 101% ready.. Something >> to look forwards to, >>meeting someone better and knowledgeable than >> you are, its time to >>learn the real deal. I sense a tongue in cheek comment here. But some people will take it seriously... BTW, Jeff, I just got back home today and will respond in private to your message. Thanks for your reply. >I'm sorry. I should have known better than to try to provide >comments. >At this point, please go to the source...as I've stated >numerous times >before. Actually Jeff, you have made a good deal od sense and helped me to have a better understanding of the ideas that Hock is putting forward. >I have not made any headway thus far....each time it has been assumed >that >the e-mail have been exaggerated, or I lack the creditials to >make >comparisons. I believe that you are really being asked to move out and do a wider comparison, but more on that later on as my comments also pertain to a later post that i will quote. >I'm done with the public comments on this thread....go to the >seminar, >watch the videos, read the articles. Hock is a very >prolific >writer/publisher that has been well accepted any many areas >of study. Acceptence alone is not the best criteria for correct applications or understading of the principles of movement and body mechanics. The real proof is in the actual applications against several people trained in several different styles. If the basic premise of mechanics and motion are sound, then the techniques will work in most cases. There is always the matter of luck, skill level and determination that are not always equal. >I'll certainly be willing to answer private e-mails to answer your >individual questions. Here are some resources if you desire >additional >information: > >Hock's web site is: http://www.hockscqc.com/ > >Hock's e-mail address is: hockhoch@aol.com > >Hock's seminars are listed at: http://www.hockscqc.com/seminars/index.htm. > >Hock's SDMS page is at: http://www.hockscqc.com/dms/index.htm > >Hock's Close Quarter Combat magazine is listed at: >http://www.hockscqc.com/magazine/index.htm. > >Hock's FAQ page is at: http://www.hockscqc.com/faq/index.htm > >Hock's Biography is at: http://www.hockscqc.com/bio/index.htm > >Hock's books and videos are listed at: >http://www.hockscqc.com/shop/index.htm > >If you don't like what you see, please find something that pleases >you. >FMA may be all that you want. This is a very good presentation, Jeff. Certinly it is difficult to argue as the proxy rather than being the source person. >------------------------------ szorn@webtv.net (S ZORN) wrote: >Subject: eskrima: Dos Manos > >Gat, Not very smart here at all, Steve. "Gat Puno" is a title, not a name. It goes a long ways toward showing a lack of understanding that could be translated to other areas of your knowledge base. >All I can do is laugh regarding your last post. First off, it seems >that >you are the only one who thinks that your style is the >"ultimate". Hmmm... that is a very strong statement. Could it be that you have over-reacted to some pointed remarks made be a person with a broader knowledge base than yourself? Remember, Hock, is a relative newcomer to the FMAs and the techniques of Dos Manos. I seem to remember from training in seminars with both Hock and GP Abon, that there is about a 25 year difference in their experience base within the FMAs. It is quite true that Hock, has other areas of training and experience to draw on and we should not discount it in any discussion of technique or style. >You act as though the SDMS course is some sort of threat to you or >your >style yet you know very little about it. Please clear up your point here. Are you refering to very little knowledge about Dos Manos or Hocks version known as SDMS? I am unclear as to your intened meaning. >As for my training, I am have trained in several styles including >Serrada >Escrima, Modern Arnis, Kombatan as well as Kenpo Karate, Kung >Fu San Soo, >Hung Gar Kung Fu, Hawaiian Lua, and Kosho Shorei Ryu >Kenpo. I have also >been training with Hock for a while. I don't claim >to be an expert on any >of these arts but I have been around long >enough to see what's being >taught out there and what isn't. I also >understand what works out on the >street and what doesn't. Training across such a wide area within the MAs does not necessarily translate into a keen understanding of everything that you have been taught. My question would be which of these systems did you complete? I place greated emphasis on knowing one system well than I do on being knowable in parts of several systems. System jumping is not something I put much trust in. >As for Hock's material, if you would check out the videos or go to a >seminar you might learn something. Hock's material is based on alot >of >different styles including military and police combatives, things >not >taught in FMA. Actually, I am aware of several FMA and JKD instructors who teach in both military and police venues. I am also aware that there are very few police training programs that officially go beyond the training academy for most of the on-duty officers, following graduation from the academy. It seems to that individual officer must take the steps of seeking additional training on their own. So your position as stated above is not particularly valid or meaningful in the context of this discussion. >Also, Hock has researched fighting styles from several cultures, > >including ancient Roman styles, which were around long before >the FMA. Do you know enough about the GP Abon's background to support your above contention? Doesn't you statement depend on your definition of culture? Your position couls be very subjective! >You see, Filipinos did not "discover" or "create" everything >that they teach, in fact they took alot of their knowledge from the >Spanish, the Chinese, and the Japanese. A very loaded and self serving statement. In my studies of the FMAs I have discovered a very flexible, adaptive martial art, that blended the essential elements from other fighting styles with their own, so that it is difficult to find a "purely indiginous Filipino" fighting art. However, the very concept of the "flow" makes the FMAs highly effective in dealing with people trained in other arts! Simply because we do not have a detailed written historical record of the older, traditional FMAs, is not justification for your above statement. In addition, you need to consider that a standard practice of the Spanish Colonial power was **to destroy any and all** documents of the people whom they colonized. Therefore to state that the Filipinos did not discover ar create anything is based on your own lack of information and understanding of colonial history in RP. >I should also mention that there is a difference between art and >combat. >In art they do things because the grandmaster says so, in >combat they do >things because they want to live. Hock teaches combat, >not art. I can agree with you on both points. However, that does mean that there are no weaknesses in what Hock is teaching, nor doeas it mean that he has not altered what is is currently teaching from what he has taught in the past. Does Hock has an evolving system and more importantly, do the students of Hock, find, discover and alter his system to fit their needs and abilities? Snipped Paragraph ----- >If you you can open your mind and are seriously interested in >learning >SDMS, get the videos or go to a seminar. Let's reverse the order here... you could go study with GP Abon or buy one of his videos. Snipped part of paragraph ---------------- >The point is that you seem to badgering the subject at hand and it >appears that you are not even familar with the material or the >course. I >suggest that you check out the material before you comment >on it. This is a reasonable request, but perhaps you should also seek to learn what GP Abon, knowws about the style that you have deemed to be Dos Manos. I have seen Dos Manos done with a single stick and with double sticks. Have you studied both of these styles under Hock? Do you have an empty hand variation of your particular Dos Manos style? - ----------------------------- Gerald Boggs wrote: >Subject: eskrima: quoting Hock > >Greetings for those that are following the DMS thread. The Hock >article >referenced from Black Belt magazine. Here's the paragraph in >its entirety >"In 1987 I began studying the Philippine martial arts. >I immediately saw >that our military and police training courses >lacked a "stick-dedicated" >component and skill-developing drills such >as those taught in the >Philippines, But even though the Philippine >arts had some solutions, they >weren't doing the crafty things that >our experienced police officers and >military pugilists were. >Additionally, the Filipinos, like the Japanese, >tend to become too >"artsy" at times, which can make their techniques >insubstantial in >the chaos of combat. Lesson learned: To create an >outstanding >stick-combat course that will best ensure a person's safety >and >success, one has to merge the best of the East with the best of the > >West. That's why I set about creating DMS, or the dos manos system." > >Also he lists "sources of Knowledge" with the advice (you would do >well >to check them out). Philippine stick fighting is at the top of >the list Thanks for posting Hock's own words, Gerald. This just makes one of my points, very clearly. Hock, came into the FMas just about 14 years ago, yet he was writing about a weakness that he found and coreected within the art. It is no wonder that some people are so quick to take his position, which he staes quite forcefully. However, I would suggest that you be very careful to do your own research and work with several people outside of Hock's system before you or anyone else accepts his statements are the unvarnished truth. There is a very small matter of body movement, body shifting, distance and footwork that need to be carefully examined before I would place all of my eggs in the DMS basket. I am not saying that he is wrong or that the system is not good. I am saying that individual research and testing is a good thing for all of us to do rather than accepting someones word that this or that is better/worse/no good. With all due respect, ArchBishop EBrook 2nd Chief Teacher - Surge Eskrima USA has once again made a statement that leads one to believe _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 13:17:00 PDT Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #184 **************************************** To unsubscribe from the eskrima-digest send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and the Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.