From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #198 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Wed, 25 April 2001 Vol 08 : Num 198 In this issue: eskrima: Sticks to the Head for higher Consciousness eskrima: Re: Dog Bros vs. Ms. J, round 3.....DING! eskrima: Re: Sticks to the Head for higher Consciousness eskrima: Re: my daughters eskrima: Re: This Mr. Hock fellow eskrima: Responsibility to yourself eskrima: The true meaning of martial arts eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #197 eskrima: Awaiting clarification eskrima: . ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1300 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Mike Inay (1944-2000), Founder of the Inayan System of Eskrima. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima-Digest at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AnimalMac@aol.com Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 22:13:54 EDT Subject: eskrima: Sticks to the Head for higher Consciousness From Marc MacYoung << > Johnaleen wrote: > > Do you think that the ultimate challenges and stick fighting in the park > > without gear is any of a better example to the commando killer > > streetfighter? what do pictures of black and blue men with only shorts on > and > > stupid grins on there faces tell children of today? >> Maybe that you can't lip off without repercussions? Naw, too obscure. How about no matter how good you think you are in a real head-to-head you are going to take some licks? ------------------------------ From: "Jesse [IHF] Greenawalt" Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 22:37:28 -0400 Subject: eskrima: Re: Dog Bros vs. Ms. J, round 3.....DING! > From: "Johnaleen" > so tell me how are you getting that message out to the kids that are just > seeing the pictures and have no understanding of what you are doing? > again like i said the post was not an attack... what was posted was to get > others to think about what we put out there and what the realty's are on the > children and woman in society that deal with it and the long term effects on > society that are placed there by others in the field... > so again nice list here but what are you doing to change that overall and > make sure that the kids know the full deal...? I don't think it's their job to do that. The media has always, and will always, put whatever spin on an event, cause, what-have-you, that they please. To watchdog any possible slants would take valuable time, money, & energy better spent elsewhere. > remember what i wrote... they are not there in the park with you and you do > not have the connivance of explaining this... do you think they are reading > what is written in the mags that go with the pic's? you kidding yourself if > you believe that because i have had to face the questions from my students > that are under 18 and have buy the mags and books and have asked me about > them.. i ask them did you read the story... > i get shrugs. the dialog in the magazines is beyond most of the kids and > they dont want to read more boring dialog that they already do in school > now... this is there point of view not mine.... Fine, but that is their problem, not Crafty or the others'. If people are too lazy to learn the truth (as people often are, preferring to watch the 11pm spin doctoring passed off as news and have their opinion given to them instead of having to rad & think enough to actually formulate one of their own), that's THEIR problem. PARTICULARLY if the text IS...RIGHT...THERE. > so what are you doing to make sure they understand.... ? Making the information available. It's out there; I've seen it... > because i had to explain it to my boys, they wanted to know why.... none of > them read the story's there boring but the pics are what they see... > and what did it tell them? That they should learn how to read??? > i told them all of what you have there but... > i had to be honest when they asked but why would they do that without > gear.... ? > i smiled at them and said because they take to many hits to the head without > a helmet... > and have lost there senses... Why spar at all? Or even train? We could comfortably sit here and type and theorize how to defeat an attacker and drink tea and contemplate our navels without actually sweating or trying anything, couldn't we? > when they go to your site and read your bio of the legality's of what you > are and why you do things... > what message dose that give them? That this is a f****ed up country that thinks it needs to save people from themselves, thus making such crap necessary. Crafty doesn't make the rules; he just plays by 'em. > again do not take this as a personal attack... tis not meant this way... > regardless of the facts that you may or may not of wanted to be a figure in > there eyes you are.... And not bad figures to have, IMO... > that when we have common sense to back us up and training that is based on > education and intelligence we dont need to prove anything to anyone... > sparing is important but doing it in a progressive manor with gear is more > important... because it shows control and it shows the responsibly that goes > behind it... > and i believe that's one of the reasons we use progressive sparing and when > we do spar we have full gear on > that and i dont need to be hit in the head over and over till cant > understand the realty's of what i am doing out in public without giving > explanations to others first... The fact is, quite simply - there are things you can learn full contact you can't learn from point sparring...things you can learn from "all ranges" that you can't learn from kickboxing or BJJ or Judo only...things you can learn with little gear that you can't learn with lotsa gear. Period. Arguing against that is just plain stupid, and can only come from inexperience. The real question is: how little gear is TOO little? The Dog Bros. themselves would say that there are things to be learned from sparring with NO gear, but the cost is just too great. They chose a different point on the continuum than you did; so what? > " Higher Consciousness through Harder Contact." > not when your brain cells are dead from taking too many hits to the head... Actually, I take harder head hits in heavy empty hand sparring than I do with sticks; I use the heavier fencing helmet (as do many of the newer people in Dog Bros. type activities). For that matter, the same could be said for anyone training fighting in any remotely realistic manner. > ps... I spar 2 times a week min with gear on... again i dont have anything > to prove doing it without gear... > i dont have an ego and i dont have to show off my burses It has nothing to do with that-you've missed the whole point. I prove things to myself only - that's all that matters. jester ------------------------------ From: AnimalMac@aol.com Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 22:43:54 EDT Subject: eskrima: Re: Sticks to the Head for higher Consciousness From Marc Animal MacYoung Johnaleen sed: << Please remember this is not an attack and its not a dialog that i started here but your co-drive by dog brother... based the examples that he brought forth from blackbelt mag and killer street fighters... >> Speaking as an "ignorant gangbanger who intimidates women" I might want to point out that your stated intent doesn't exactly scan with your prose. Don't matter what you mean it to be, that's how it reads. (Strunk and White, here I come...) However, more to the point, unless you have stood there and slammed and jammed with "da boys" then all I am hearing is condescending proselytizing, untested rhetoric and PC buzzwords. Go play, then preach. ------------------------------ From: "Johnaleen" Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 23:22:14 -0400 Subject: eskrima: Re: my daughters Dear Alvis first i want to tell you that your a fine father and i totally applaud you... i wish there were more like you and i pray that someday there will be... I agree with you but that's not where the problem is, like i said its the kids that are not taking the classes and are not there when this is all explained... if the kids are there learning the art and learning the concepts that go behind them of course they are well behaved and well mannered because they have the guidance that goes with the arts... we are talking about the impressions left to the kids that dont see all the reasons and the ones that dont understand it all because they have not had the positive influence's and only the negative ones... i just dont think that we take all this into account and that as educators its our job as well to be sure that we are not putting negative examples out there unnecessarily, when things can be done to be sure that its not left that way in the minds of children that dont have the home life that allows them the same opportunity your children have... again that's great and awesome and wonderful because that's what we need more kids that understand and that take the arts and learn from all the positive things that they have to offer... again though we are not talking about children that take the arts... or the ones that have famleys that have some kind of moral fiber and positive base of raising them... or the ones that have fathers that are dog brothers that love and protect them as part of the pack and have there full explanation there at home... if my students had never asked me it would never have been a subject for discussion... why did they ask? again i am really glad that you have your daughter taking MA and FMA because she is going to grow up safe and you are an awesome dad to be sure to offer her this... but what about the ones that dont take and art and dont have fathers taking an art or mothers taking an art ? they are the ones that are being raped abused and assaulted and the children that are watching there mothers get killed and abused and raped.. they are the ones that i have the records for.... average town USA year 1999 279 deaths due to domestic violence 50 % died by strangulation 25 % died by knife attack 25 % died of gun shots every one of these famleys had been though the system at least 3 times every police officer and townships say a woman should take an art and self defense but there not and those are the realities... these stats i have there actual reports from the police stations... there reported crimes and many dont go reported because of lack of evidence... Tell your daughter i am proud of her... Ms J........ Ms. Johnaleen Castro CEO/F.A.T.E. 1-888-526-4626 Victims Program Facilitating Awareness Through Empowerment FATE@f-a-t-e.org www.f-a-t-e.org ------------------------------ From: "Jeff Allen" Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 11:08:49 -0500 Subject: eskrima: Re: This Mr. Hock fellow > From: Jon Maudal > Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 08:53:15 -0700 (PDT) > Subject: eskrima: Re:Hock > > Howdy All! > > Just been perusing all of the postings on this Mr. Hock > fellow. Has anybody out there ever seen him move? According > to his ad, he teaches FMA and "commando" - like techniques... > "like"?! What exactly does he profess, and who does he come from? > > Just Curious, > > Bothvar the beligerant Jon, I've studied with Hock since 1994. I've seen him move...as have many others...This Mr. Hock fellow is very good. His web page is: http://www.hockscqc.com/ His bio is at: http://www.hockscqc.com/bio/index.htm His seminars are listed at: http://www.hockscqc.com/seminars/index.htm His e-mail is: hockhoch@aol.com The above is the same information that I posted several times in the discussion thread that you perused. Your post seem inappropriate and rude -- since your read the discussion already -- but I may be getting old and grumpy. Read the above information and you will answer your posted questions. You can read the web site to see "where he comes from", and go to a seminar and see him move and profess. Sincerely, Jeff the frustrated (drjeffallen@home.com) ------------------------------ From: "q" Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 22:43:10 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Responsibility to yourself Johnaleen wrote: >remember what i wrote... they are not there in the park with you and you do >not have the connivance of explaining this... do you think they are reading >what is written in the mags that go with the pic's? you kidding yourself if >you believe that because i have had to face the questions from my students >that are under 18 and have buy the mags and books and have asked me about >them.. i ask them did you read the story... > >i get shrugs. the dialog in the magazines is beyond most of the kids and >they dont want to read more boring dialog that they already do in school >now... this is there point of view not mine.... > >so what are you doing to make sure they understand.... ? Time and maturity give you that understanding. You cannot. Somehow most of us live through it with 2 eyes and both hands. Young kids read but can't comprehend. Young kids hear but don't listen. God gave use young tough invincible bodies that heal great so you learn when you are young and that pain in your shoulder makes you remember when you are older. That's life. First there is testosterone soemtimes later there are brains. > > i had to be honest when they asked but why would they do that without >gear.... ? >i smiled at them and said because they take to many hits to the head without >a helmet... >and have lost there senses... > >but i also explained that each have there own paths and own way of doing >things... No, People without gear have come to their sences. They realize that you can't learn to swim without being in the water no matter how good you are on dry land. Some where there has to be a line drawn and each must draw their own line. You can't delude yourself into thinking you can swim if you never hit water. > >that when we have common sense to back us up and training that is based on >education and intelligence we dont need to prove anything to anyone... You can't use these skills until you have proven them to yourself. It is not about proving anything to anyone. > >sparing is important but doing it in a progressive manor with gear is more >important... because it shows control and it shows the responsibly that goes >behind it...> So does responsibility to yourself for finding out if what you do in sparring really works. You have an even greater resonsibility if you teach it. >that and i dont need to be hit in the head over and over till i cant >understand the realty's of what i am doing out in public without giving >explanations to others first... It is not about getting hit in the head. Getting hit in the head is incidental contact of gaining enlightenment in this sport. Go home and try this: If you are a boxer you probably cover a hook with a closed fist and bent arm to your temple. It becomes an ingrained habit. When you stick spar you probably cover with a closed fist. Now take your gloves of and spar no gear lightly and see what happens to your closed fist. Think what happens when the power goes up! Think what you have to do to cover with no gear and not get hurt with just a minor modification of the "hook" cover. You just can't fully understand that while wearing gloves and a helmet. Regards, Carlton H. Fung, D.D.S. Redondo Beach, Ca. ------------------------------ From: "jon broster" Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 03:11:46 -0700 Subject: eskrima: The true meaning of martial arts Hi I came across this site the other day, it is absolutely hilarious> Enjoy: http://games.sohu.com/fightgame/fight3.swf Jon http://www.geocities.com/jonbroster ------------------------------ From: "steven drape" Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 16:03:05 +0800 Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #197 > i had to be honest when they asked but why would they do that without > gear.... ? > i smiled at them and said because they take to many hits to the head without > a helmet... > and have lost there senses... Respectfully, you should not try to explain something to kids which you do not understand yourself. It's a cliche to say that men and women are from different worlds, but I wager that any man instantly understands what it means to prove oneself in combat, whether it is the real thing, on the football field, or seeing "men in shorts covered with bruises". We learn from a very young age that respect is earned through an individual's efforts, including spilt blood and being covered in bruises. That includes the most important form of respect- self- respect! Whether one has the willingness to prove himself worthy of that camaraderie or brotherhood or fellowship (whatever term you choose to use) is a question each man asks himself many times in his life, but the fact that the choice exists is a no-brainer. I'm sorry, but frankly I don't believe you when you say young men are asking you why. Young children perhaps, but not anyone of junior high age and above. It is usually the women who ask why, because the female is rarely called upon to join that club, and most do not understand, even if it is explained carefully to them. Some women do understand, and I am definitely not trying to start any sort of gender debate here, but most do not. > that when we have common sense to back us up and training that is based on > education and intelligence we dont need to prove anything to anyone... I really do hope that Utopia can someday become a reality, where education and intelligence rule, and everyone loves everyone else, and justice is so common that we don't have to talk about it any more, but I'm quite sure that it won't happen in any of our lifetimes. Sometimes the only thing that keeps the wolves from the door is "proving" to them that they will suffer if they try it. Forgive me for being a cynical bastard, but experience is a hard teacher. Steve - -- _______________________________________________ FREE Internet Email for the Martial Arts! Kung Fu Online http://www.kungfuonline.com Powered by Instant Portal ------------------------------ From: "Marc Denny" Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 01:50:54 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Awaiting clarification A Howl of Greeting to All: I'll do a brief pass through Johnaleen's post and then comment a bit more. > From: "Johnaleen" > Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 12:01:28 -0400 > Subject: eskrima: Re: Sticks to the Head for higher Consciousness > > nice list there crafty.... > > so tell me how are you getting that message out to the kids that are just > seeing the pictures and have no understanding of what you are doing? > > again like i said the post was not an attack... No worries. >what was posted was to get > others to think about what we put out there and what the realty's (realities?) are on the > children and woman in society that deal with it and the long term effects on > society that are placed there by others in the field.. > so again nice list here but what are you doing to change that overall and > make sure that the kids know the full deal...? The Dog Brothers and Dog Brothers Martial Arts are what I do. I think the world is a better place for them. But I'm not clear (and I'm not sure you are either) as to what you mean when it comes to "mak(ing) sure the kids know". That we should stop from what we do if some do not understand? That we should kick down doors and beat up the kids to make them understand? > remember what i wrote... they are not there in the park with you and you do > not have the connivance (convenience?) of explaining this... do you think they are reading > what is written in the mags that go with the pic's? you kidding yourself if > you believe that because i have had to face the questions from my students > that are under 18 and have buy the mags and books and have asked me about > them.. i ask them did you read the story... > i get shrugs. the dialog in the magazines is beyond most of the kids and > they dont want to read more boring dialog that they already do in school > now... this is there point of view not mine.... > > so what are you doing to make sure they understand.... ? In every article I have ever written about what we do, or has been written about us, I have made sure that the Dog Brother message was part of it. What's the point here-- that we should stop because teenagers sometimes are too lazy to read and just look at the pictures? And,no offense but what are you doing to make sure they understand? Are you telling them they might find the answer to their questions if they read the article that goes with the pictures? > because i had to explain it to my boys, they wanted to know why.... none of > them read the story's (stories) there boring but the pics are what they see... > > and what did it tell them? > > i told them all of what you have there but... > i had to be honest when they asked but why would they do that without > gear.... ? > i smiled at them and said because they take to many hits to the head without > a helmet... > and have lost there (their?) senses... And at the other end of the spectrum we have those who think what we do isn't fighting because of the headgear. ;-) Oh well. > when they go to your site and read your bio of the legality's of what you > are and why you do things... > what message dose that give them? As for the part about the legality of it all: We give the message that they should not surrender to the Naderite Safety Fascists, the lawyers, those who would substitute the State for the Family and those who would take from them their Freedom as they would remove from them the Responsibility for the consequences of their actions. That if they learn to read and think, they will be better armed to walk their path unbowed. As for their reading why we do these things: I'm confused. Wasn't the problem a moment ago that they weren't reading? > again do not take this as a personal attack... tis not meant this way... > regardless of the facts that you may or may not of wanted to be a figure in > there eyes you are.... > > but i also explained that each have there own paths and own way of doing > things... Very generous of you. Dog Brothers everywhere will sleep well tonight. :-) > that when we have common sense to back us up and training that is based on > education and intelligence we dont need to prove anything to anyone... Yes, but many people with such elements also need experience of the adrenal state. > sparing is important but doing it in a progressive manor with gear is more > important... because it shows control and it shows the responsibly that goes > behind it... Safety, Control, and Responsibility are very nice, but if you have to use the skills it may well be against someone who is not nice, not controlled and not operating with a sense of responsibility. You may also need to have some sense of what you need to dish out to win, and what you can take in order to do so. Burt Richardson, in the first ever article to appear about us, began with what I thought was an apt analogy: You are sitting on an airplane and the announcement comes over the speaker that their airplane is a new design, and this is its maiden flight. Likewise the engine , , , but it has performed well in wind tunnels tests. The captain too is a virgin, but he's been trained on the finest flight simulators. Would you bet your life on this flight? > and i believe that's one of the reasons we use progressive sparing and when > we do spar we have full gear on > that and i dont need to be hit in the head over and over till i cant > understand the realty's of what i am doing out in public without giving > explanations to others first... I apologize, but I am particularly confused by the last portion of this run-on sentence. What do you mean by "I don't need to be hit in the head over and over (until) I can't understand the realities of what I am doing out in public without giving explanations to others first"? Are you saying that in contrast we do need to give an explanation to others so that we will understand the realities of what we are doing? Is this correct? > " Higher Consciousness through Harder Contact." > > not when your brain cells are dead from taking too many hits to the head... I restrain myself from a witty rejoinder here. ;-) and limit myself to noting that there's a (c) after that if you please. > Ms J........ > > ps... I spar 2 times a week min with gear on... again i dont have anything > to prove doing it without gear... > i dont have an ego ;-))) >and i dont have to show off my burses The purpose of the shots of the bruises is to show that the fighting is real. > but you will normally see a silly grin on my face regardless of what i am > doing.... Glad to hear it. > Please remember this is not an attack and its not a dialog that i started > here but your co-drive by dog brother... based the examples that he brought > forth from blackbelt mag and killer street fighters... I have no idea of what you mean by "co-drive by Dog Brother", but am delighted to converse. > Ms. Johnaleen Castro > CEO/F.A.T.E. 1-888-526-4626 > Victims Program > Facilitating Awareness Through Empowerment > FATE@f-a-t-e.org > www.f-a-t-e.org > Clearly Johnaleen is writing from a well-intentioned heart, but I confess her stream of consciousness writing style sometimes leaves me confused as to her point-- so it is entirely possible that I misunderstand some of what she saying. As best as I can tell she clearly misunderstands what we are saying. Perhaps it is a Mars and Venus thing. Does she mean that we the Dog Brothers are setting a bad example and thus contributing to negative realities for women and children? Or that we should be doing a more effective job of communicating our message (and if it should be communicated one would infer that she deems it good) to those too lazy to read what goes with the pictures? I can find evidence for both meanings in her post, yet combining the two,as best as I can tell yields cognitive dissonance. I await clarification. Woof, Crafty Dog ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 6:59:10 PDT Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #198 **************************************** To unsubscribe from the eskrima-digest send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and the Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.