From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #199 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Wed, 25 April 2001 Vol 08 : Num 199 In this issue: eskrima: RE: that Hock fellow eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #198 eskrima: Concern for safety eskrima: RE: my daughters eskrima: Re: the DB experience eskrima: Re: Awaiting clarification eskrima: Re: This Mr. Hock Fellow eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #197 eskrima: Re:ignorant gangbanger who intimidates women eskrima: Johnaleen's point eskrima: cheezz ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1300 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Mike Inay (1944-2000), Founder of the Inayan System of Eskrima. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima-Digest at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bladewerkr@aol.com Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 09:48:36 EDT Subject: eskrima: RE: that Hock fellow << ust been perusing all of the postings on this Mr. Hock fellow.=A0 Has anybody out there ever seen him move? According to his ad, he teaches FMA and "commando" - like techniques... "like"?! What exactly does he=A0 profess, and who does he come from? Just Curious, Bothvar the beligerant >> I met Hock back a few years ago. He was doing a seminar at a friends Tae Kwo= n=20 Do school across town so we (myself and about a dozen students) went to help= =20 support the event.=A0 Hock is a very personable gentleman, he comes from an=20 American Kenpo background, used to study with the late Terry Gibson up in=20 Tulsa (both Terry and his wife Cathy were full instructors under Guro Dan).= =A0=20 He went to the Philippines several times to study with Ernesto Presas. He wa= s=20 a beat cop in the Dallas area for a lot of years, 20 comes to mind but I am=20 not positive on that point. He moves well he can handle himself and he has=20 used what he does on the street. (I have another acquaintance that worked th= e=20 same police dept., his fellow officers had a great deal of respect for him.= =A0=20 I have crossed hands with him training, he knows how to fight. =A0 =A0 =A0=A0 As to what it is he teaches or how he came up with any of it,= that is=20 out of my realm of knowledge. I imagine though that he took what was useful=20 and absorbed it and rejected what was useless to him, as most of us do. My suggestion to anyone that has any questions concerning Hock is write call= =20 or email him. If you want to know something ask the person, don't seek secon= d=20 hand information. You might also consider taking one of his seminars that wa= y=20 you can judge for yourself what the man is all about. Be Well, =A0 =A0 =A0=A0 Bear=20 http://www.hockscqc.com ------------------------------ From: Bladewerkr@aol.com Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 10:31:49 EDT Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #198 As a bystander (not a member of the Dog Brothers or F. A. T. E.) I have watched this for a spell. Now I'd like to comment a bit. I for one think it ludicrous to blame the people in a picture for the fact that someone was either too lazy or too stupid to read the article the picture was in. If you wish to blame someone try blaming the parents or the schools for not teaching the kids to read. I for one, am tired of having to dummy everything down to the lowest denominator. I mean they have to put warning labels on boxing gloves now. Sheesh, if you're too dumb to figure out that boxing is a "contact sport and may cause injury" you probably do not need to be out alone. We have warning labels on everything because we as a society have decided that people are too dumb to take care of themselves. And, it seems people have taken that for a sign that indeed they are. Ms. J, I am very sympathetic to abused people, regardless of gender or age however laws that make the abuse or assault of one person more important than the assault of another is wrong, morally and constitutionally. Hate crimes and domestic violence laws are just the Bullworth of the 90's. Assault is assault period. As to the "callous attitudes" of some law enforcement officers about domestic violence that was such a selling point for these laws. The people that wrote them never had to disarm a person who was trying to kill someone, only to be attacked by the victim for "Hurting her man," or have the victim beat you to the station with a bondsman to bail out her attacker. If you doubt the validity of these statements talk to some LEO's, off the record as most are trying to cope with a politically correct department policy. So come on give us a break, if my kids came in and asked what the deal was I would ask if they read the article, if not they would have to then we would discuss the article and the pictures. That is the way you teach children. Humanity, like water seeks its own level. The more we dummy society down, the dumber the resulting society. Pardon the ramble, Be Well Bear ------------------------------ From: "Hutchins, Jamie" Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 10:41:53 -0400 Subject: eskrima: Concern for safety From: "jon broster" Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 03:11:46 -0700 Subject: eskrima: The true meaning of martial arts Hi I came across this site the other day, it is absolutely hilarious> Enjoy: http://games.sohu.com/fightgame/fight3.swf Jon I was somewhat concerned to see that the stickmen on this website were not wearing protective equipment and that there were not any disclaimers explaining that no real stickmen were harmed in the filming in this epic fight sequence. Seriously though I thought that I might on the Dog Bros vs Mrs J thread. Now I'm coming from this from the perspective of a student that has less than 6 months experience in FMA and in the UK. I simply do not get why Mrs J seems to expect the Dog Bros to take any further responsibility for the actions of other people (because you can bet it isn't just children that don't get the DB message). Her arguments sound exactly like the ones I have with my girlfriend about every contact sport around. There just seems to be no appreciation of the underlying concepts (by this I do not mean to belittle Mrs J's martial knowledge - I mean the underlying concepts as explained by Crafty and the rest of the pack). I haven't fought DB style but even in my novice stages I can see the worth in this concept. When I walked into my first class I was almost literally bricking it just at the thought of getting hit by a rattan stick. Eventually after a few knocks my fears subsided. As a consequence my experience has grown and my art progressed (I can now speed up and concentrate on what is happening rather than what might happen). In a similar vein I think that the DB style of fighting allows more experienced fighters to perhaps surpass a plateau that they must reach where the art is there but the individual need to know "does it work"? As I understand it the legend goes that a bunch of psychos armed with sticks decided to get together and give each other the closest experience of actual combat that they could without serious consequence. I don't think that they ever considered that they would have to explain their actions all the way, take responsibility for people who copied without understanding or any other similar argument. Maybe one day I'll get to attend a gathering. Maybe some UK psychos with sticks already exist? I am certain that the DBs have taken as much responsibility as they possibly can without taking a seat in government. If the kids don't want to read the articles that go with the pictures then they should at very least start with: "No judges, no referees, no trophies. One rule only Be friends at the end of the day. This means no one should spend the night in the hospital, and everyone should leave with the IQ that they came with." (from the DBs website - I hope they don't mind). It was pretty condescending to tell the kids that the DBs do what they do because they've been bashed over the head too many times - Mrs J was joking but she was the one wondering about a child's ability to comprehend sub-textual references. Well anyway I can't say too much more as my experience of FMA, DBMA, the USA and of Mrs J is limited. I enjoy reading everyone's postings on this forum it certainly gives me food for thought. I think that at most a martial art's instructor can hope to produce students of a high calibre that understand his/her teachings. Anyone outside of the class doesn't have the luxury of one-on-one and therefore is quite open to the possibility of misunderstanding. Back to lurking. Jamie ------------------------------ From: Allen Eastwood Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 11:01:46 -0500 Subject: eskrima: RE: my daughters > From: "Johnaleen" > > I agree with you but that's not where the problem is, like i said its the > kids that are not taking the classes and are not there when this is all > explained... > > if the kids are there learning the art and learning the concepts that go > behind them of course they are well behaved and well mannered because they > have the guidance that goes with the arts... > > we are talking about the impressions left to the kids that dont > see all the > reasons and the ones that dont understand it all because they have not had > the positive influence's and only the negative ones... This seems to imply that somehow Crafty/the Dog Brothers are somehow responsible for other people's kids? If that is your implication, well....rubbish. Kids have this funny thing called parents. Parents are responsbible. Period. Not anyone or anything else. And ultimately, the kids themselves over time have to learn self-responsibility. My father has this saying that I think is very apropos here....don't go throwing stones at someone else's glass house until the stones are cleaned up out of your own. Do you have your own kids? Worry about them. Teach and guide them. Leave everyone else's kids alone. If you're a teacher, teach them the subjects you've been charged to teach them. Leave other subjects alone. Going beyond your scope as a parent or educator is, quite frankly, one of the most arrogant things a person can do. > i just dont think that we take all this into account and that as educators > its our job as well to be sure that we are not putting negative > examples out > there unnecessarily, when things can be done to be sure that its not left > that way in the minds of children that dont have the home life that allows > them the same opportunity your children have... See above. Furthermore, I can spin/twist any example you want into a bad story. I can make a negative example out of anything. Are you suggesting that we do nothing for fear of how someone else will spin it? Again, rubbish!!! Again, it comes down to this...each individual is personally responsible for his or her own conduct and interpretation of what they experience. In the case of children, it is the responsibiliy of that child's own parents or legal guardian to teach them those lessons about life. > again though we are not talking about children that take the > arts... or the > ones that have famleys that have some kind of moral fiber and > positive base > of raising them... or the ones that have fathers that are dog > brothers that > love and protect them as part of the pack and have there full explanation > there at home... Really...it's none of your (or my) business. > they are the ones that are being raped abused and assaulted and > the children > that are watching there mothers get killed and abused and raped.. they are > the ones that i have the records for.... Now we get to your real agenda. First off, linking the Dog Brothers to the abuse cited is absolutely ludicrous. While not a DB myself, I have had the pleasure of knowing some of them for a few years now and I can say that they represent some of the finest and most upright people I know. Secondly, while I do deplore the abuses you cite, this is not the forum to push your agenda...at least in my not-so-humble-opinion. Martial arts training, of any type, does not encourage abusive behavior...not even from a spectator perspective. These abuses are the results of people with real problems. Problems that if you're really concerned about, you might do better working at the real causes. Finally, I have to sound off about one last thing. The one thing I absolutely detest about the PC crapola and Socialism, is the assumption that someone else knows better how to run an individual's life better than that individual. Give people some credit for crying out loud. People are much smarter than you would give them credit for. - -Allen ------------------------------ From: "Jeff T. Inman" Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 10:04:25 -0600 (MDT) Subject: eskrima: Re: the DB experience Hound Dog wrote: > I have two daughters, Meagan is 9, Ember will be 4 next month. I am Mr. Mom > during the day, and I run my school in the afternoons/evenings. I have never > spanked my kids, I use redirection and time out instead. My children are well > behaved and well mannered. Meagan takes Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and competes in > it as well....at the last tournament she competed in, she had the little boy > in a full arm bar, and the boy refused to tap, so she let the arm bar go. The > boy passed her guard and got side control, thus winning the match by points > 2-0. I asked her why she let it go, and she said it was no worth a medal to > knowingly break his arm....besides they have played together at other > tournaments after competing and she wants to keep him as a friend. This is a > lesson that she has had modeled for her by watching me stickfight and compete > in BJJ, both on tape and in person. "Be Friends At the End of the Day!" She > loves the feeling of safety I provide by knowing that I can be loving to her, > while being able to totally trash someone if I had to. She also knows that I > can stand in the eye of a hurricane and not pee my pants, because I have test > my art...more importantly, I test my heart. Everyone who has ever stepped on > the grass with me, or on the mat with me knows that I grin stupidly after the > match....win or lose, because I have learned something about myself that I > can pass along to my daughters. You said it all, Alvis. And you too, Loki. We don't owe it to people to explain what is happening on the tapes any better than Marc has (and Alivs and Loki have) already attempted to do. There is nothing you can do to guarantee that somebody won't look at something you do and make a misguided conclusion, other than taking responsibility for attempting to express it and to model what you claim to have learned. The rest is esoteric; that means it isn't on the page, it's not on the tape, it isn't in the slogan or the training: what happens to you in a DB stickfight is deep and personal. It's just an opportunity, not a medicine. There was a comment in the forward of (Tim?) Page's collected photos from Viet Nam where he was remarking on some publishers who had approached him and said they wanted him to collect some pictures that would "take the glamour out of war", and he was thinking [something along the lines of] "that's impossible! You can't take the glamour out of war. How the hell are you going to take the glamour out of a flight of choppers swooping in over the trees?" People may get drawn into stickfighting (or skydiving, or surfing, or whatever) for reasons that are different than what they eventually end up valuing about the experiences they have there. It's cool, it's badass. Then you give it a try and it's scary and it hurts, yet something is compelling about it. Eventually, maybe you discover something deep and valuable that can't be easily handed on to someone else. Regards, Jeff Inman ------------------------------ From: "Johnaleen" Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 12:37:26 -0400 Subject: eskrima: Re: Awaiting clarification 1) I never said that full contact sparing was un-necessary; though personally I believe, that sparing without gear on is down right Stupid.. And I know that there are some of you that wear gear but.. That's not what is being sent out there in messages to the kids. again the question that has been asked a number of times from my younger students that have seen stuffs around and in the mags is ' WHY DO THEY SPAR WITHOUT GEAR THIS WAY.. The impression your leaving by not making sure they understand, is that your going into the park and just whooping on each other with shorts on and nothing else.. Why? Because that is what they are seeing in pics. and the example that you are leaving them by allowing them to see things without making sure they understand the concepts. Yes your responsible.. The same as I am responsible for my actions in public. when you become public you then have to face the responsibly that go's with it. Moreover, take into account what your putting out there overall based on the nation of children that do not have the opportunity to be there for one of your gatherings or have a tape to watch with a full explanation. My 10-year-old student Marco asked me last night wile we were doing a progressive set of Joint-stick locks with the class if I had ever killed anyone. And if I had ever had to cut someone's throat with the knife. then I spent the time to explain to him that the realty's are this may save you if someone dose try to knife you or cut you but that the point is not for me too kill. The point is being able to face the confrontation and dealing with it in a way to save your life and get out of there. that there is a huge difference between practicing the art and saving your life. Did I tell him the truth about killing and if I had been cut or sliced someone's neck? Yes I told him the facts and I maid sure I was not portrayed as a hero doing it and I took the time to explain that yes Marko I have been cut with a knife more then once and yes I have held someone at bay with a knife to the throat, but I managed to save my life and not kill anyone. I told him about the realty's I faced when I was his age and the negative things that put me there to have to defend myself and my life against the knife. We are not talking about teaching gangbangers how to kill here we are talking about teaching a 10 year old boy the realty's at the same time making sure he understands the responsibility's that goes behind the art. He then proceeded to go to my partner and ask him the same set of questions. again he can read but instead of reading the child came and asked questions. that is how children learn by example and what we show them. more then what they read about. if they bother to read it. Do I tell them they should do full contact sparing? Yeah we talk about full contact and its part of our training with them after they know enough to do it with some knowledge base but. only with full gear on. Why? Because I have had enough broken bones and torn ligaments and injuries the past 3 years in the field with dudes in the arts to know I don't need to spar without gear. and I will NEVER ADVOCATE DOING OTHER THEN THAT and any that do I will say the same thing IT JUST DOWN RIGHT STUPID.. Ill say one more reason its stupid. because latter in life when your creaking and your joints hurt and your crawling out of bed because you spent time being whooped on for the first 25 years of your training and you did it without gear so you could taste the realty's of pain. You can think about how you will be crawling out of bed each day this way for the next 20 years of your life. Or you can come to me like others have over the years for healing. the ones that got whooped on and were having a hell of a time doing it at the time and are now in there 40s and 50s and crying adult men in pain because they cant get out of bed in the mornings. and there riddled with arthritis because of the past hits breaks and injuries from not training with gear and going all out when they were young. or On the other hand, the list of masters that died early and we have lost over the years because of the same reasons. Ms J. ***Mark Wrote****Burt Richardson, in the first ever articles to appear about us, **** Are you trying to say that because he said this that he is indorsing what you do and advocates training without gear and doing full contact just in shorts? If that is what your saying then are you now going to say he still believes that? And because he wrote this article that he indorses you and what your doing overall when sparing in the park without gear on? Because the way we run our sparing sessions and teach the levels of progressive sparing is based on what this man teaches.. In addition, I do not recall him ever saying to either myself or my business partner to spar without gear on. maybe i missed something in all the contact over the years between the 3 of us... ------------------------------ From: "Ernest Westbrook" Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 18:00:12 -0000 Subject: eskrima: Re: This Mr. Hock Fellow drjeffallen@home.com, wrote: >Subject: eskrima: Re: This Mr. Hock fellow > > > From: Jon Maudal > > Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 08:53:15 -0700 (PDT) > > Subject: eskrima: Re:Hock > > > > Howdy All! > > > > Just been perusing all of the postings on this Mr. Hock > > fellow. Has anybody out there ever seen him move? According > > to his ad, he teaches FMA and "commando" - like techniques... > > "like"?! What exactly does he profess, and who does he come from? > > > > Just Curious, > > > > Bothvar the beligerant > >Jon, > >I've studied with Hock since 1994. I've seen him move...as have many >others...This Mr. Hock fellow is very good. > >His web page is: http://www.hockscqc.com/ > >His bio is at: http://www.hockscqc.com/bio/index.htm > >His seminars are listed at: http://www.hockscqc.com/seminars/index.htm > >His e-mail is: hockhoch@aol.com > >The above is the same information that I posted several times in the >discussion thread that you perused. Your post seem inappropriate and >rude -- since your read the discussion already -- but I may be >getting old >and grumpy. Read the above information and you will >answer your posted >questions. I agree with you Jeff, the post from Jon is a bit over the top since the thread has been quite exhaustive and the information has been made availible earlier. >You can read the web site to see "where he comes from", and go to a > >seminar and see him move and profess. In the end, going to a seminar may be the only way to end this point of controversy. Arch Bishop EBrook, 2nd Chief Teacher - Surge Eskrima USA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: Scytale Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 09:51:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #197 > so tell me how are you getting that message out to the kids that are just > seeing the pictures and have no understanding of what you are doing? > > again like i said the post was not an attack... what was posted was to get > others to think about what we put out there and what the realty's are on the > children and woman in society that deal with it and the long term effects on > society that are placed there by others in the field... > > so again nice list here but what are you doing to change that overall and > make sure that the kids know the full deal...? I'm not saying this is necessarily your bent here, but anytime people go out to censor or remove something that they don't like or isn't 'right', it's usually 'for the kids.' So should we shield children from any possible violent influence as they grow up? Then they would certainly be much easier victims to them once they are in the real world. My personal opinion is that the primary agent for helping children understand what's right and wrong is the parents ... not the Dog Brothers or MA magazines. > i told them all of what you have there but... > i had to be honest when they asked but why would they do that without > gear.... ? > i smiled at them and said because they take to many hits to the head without > a helmet... > and have lost there senses... > > that when we have common sense to back us up and training that is based on > education and intelligence we dont need to prove anything to anyone... I have never done full contact stick fighting, although I would like to and have recently started full contact with empty hands. The message I get from DBMA, Chad in Hawaii, and my own experiences, is that it has nothing to do with proving anything to somebody else, but to yourself. It gives you an opportunity to explore your reactions when pushed to the edge. > not when your brain cells are dead from taking too many hits to the head... Crafty has been doing this for quite some time, and his posts always seem quite literate, thoughtful, and well-read. If he's lost much cortex, I can't tell a difference. > ps... I spar 2 times a week min with gear on... again i dont have anything > to prove doing it without gear... > i dont have an ego and i dont have to show off my burses I have yet to see one of the full-contact guys on this list display an ego. These are just my thoughts. I've been on my butt for almost a month due to an abdominal muscle strain, but I'm back to training Friday. The doctor suggested I do only 1 type of activity the first day, and on each training day add an additional activity to see if it bothers the muscle. I'm kinda looking forward to the opportunity to really zoom in on aspects of my technique. Any ideas out there for areas I could base a 45 minute workout on that would center on a non-abdominal muscle group? Basic stick angles, for example. Thanks for any ideas. Bryan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: "Johnaleen" Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 13:11:42 -0400 Subject: eskrima: Re:ignorant gangbanger who intimidates women ****From Marc Animal MacYoung Speaking as an "ignorant gangbanger who intimidates women" I might want to point out that your stated intent doesn't exactly scan with your prose. Don't matter what you mean it to be, that's how it reads. (Strunk and White, here I come...) However, more to the point, unless you have stood there and slammed and jammed with "da boys" then all I am hearing is condescending proselytizing, untested rhetoric and PC buzzwords. Go play, then preach.********* First off Animal..... as far as i am concerned you are nothing but an ex ganganger turned corrections officer that had nothing better to do then to sit and use what happened to him as a child and adult to further your fighting skills and to promote more organized gang activity's... and based on your story's you are nothing but one of the gangbangers that i had to defend myself daily from wile growing up... you are not a hero... and you never will be in my eyes and i will never allow any of my students to think this... i would also be careful quoting personal mail here between us because i have been Very lenient to both you and your wife when it came to the mail i received from you both privetly... and so were all the others that saw this mail.. mainly because of your inability to understand your not the only one that has been there and because your still angry at the world because it happened to you... Ms J....... PS... out of all the things that you both called me and threatened me with. the only thing i never understood was being called a dojo darling, granted it was the nicest word you both used when attacking me and my character, but that is one term i had to actually ask someone what it meant and when i found out i was laughing hard... again i realized that it was just you and your wife's inability to understand who i am... and why.......and i dont not have to run to anyone to write my letters for me in my defense. and i have many that would do so my friend i assure you... so mayhap i am not quite the Village idiot you portray me to be at times.... ------------------------------ From: Loki Jorgenson Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 10:27:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eskrima: Johnaleen's point There is a lot of ambiguity and prehaps contradiction in the substance of what Johnaleen has written. And it has provoked a lot of responses, many unfairly calling her out IMHO. All that aside, there is substance in what Johnaleen is asking. The central point seems clear to me though - as a group with public profile, what responsibility are the Dog Brothers taking for the message kids get, accurately or otherwise? I believe that the only real way to make a difference as an individual is living by example. No preaching. No grandstanding. No posturing. No "do as I say, not as I do". Just walk the walk. For the most part, that is what the DBs are about and one reason I'm involved. Moreover, I believe that anyone with power to influence instantly acquires a responsiblity to set an example. Rock stars, movie stars, presidents, whomever. Acting like self-indulgent idiots is an abuse of the fame they have been granted. They do far more damage to society than is widely appreciated - they are moral vandals. So do the DBs give sufficient consideration to their profile? How they affect kids? How they contribute to the overall problem or solution? Is there anything they can do differently? ...... I feel like this is the question that Johnaleen is fielding. (Johnaleen - let me know if I'm off base). ::Johnaleen wrote: :: ::we are talking about the impressions left to the kids that dont see all the ::reasons and the ones that dont understand it all because they have not had ::the positive influence's and only the negative ones... :: - -- 'gards, /\ Pekiti-Tirsia kali / \ silat Jati Wisesa Loki Jorgenson < MANOyBASTON Martial Arts > / __ \ Dog Brothers MA loki@pekiti-tirsia.org (604) 254-0240 / _L \ Majapahit Empire www.pekiti-tirsia.org/ManoBaston/ /________\ (Inosanto-IMAIA) ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 11:51:01 PDT Subject: eskrima: cheezz Good God folks, can't we keep this on a reasonable level? Perhaps even getting back to FMA??? Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #199 **************************************** To unsubscribe from the eskrima-digest send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and the Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.