From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #202 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Thur, 26 April 2001 Vol 08 : Num 202 In this issue: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #199 eskrima: Look back in Ganganger eskrima: Ms. J & the DBs eskrima: Re: Ms.. Js---defense --- the hanging Judge...:) eskrima: Re: little fight guy eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #201 eskrima: . ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1300 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Mike Inay (1944-2000), Founder of the Inayan System of Eskrima. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima-Digest at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HENSHIN@aol.com Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 12:15:05 EDT Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #199 In a message dated 4/25/01 11:30:05 AM US Mountain Standard Time, eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << Why? Because that is what they are seeing in pics. and the example that you are leaving them by allowing them to see things without making sure they understand the concepts. >> I tried to refrain from commenting on this thread mostly due to the fact that it is obvious that, like gun control debates, the two sides have their beliefs and cannot make the cognitive leap that would allow for agreement. However, the quote above is a little much as a point of arguement. EVERY single book or magazine ever published on martial arts contains picture sequences showing people WITHOUT protective equipment doing bad and viscious things to each other. From the above quote, I assume that the author feels that this is also wrong, since it is no different from pictures of the Dog Brothers sparring? Cecil B. ------------------------------ From: Badger Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 12:45:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: eskrima: Look back in Ganganger **************************************** > Johnaleen said > >First off Animal..... as far as i am concerned you are nothing but an > ex ganganger turned corrections officer that had nothing better to do > then to sit and use what happened to him as a child and adult to > further your fighting skills and to promote more organized gang > activity's... - ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #201 **************************************** I must take strong issue with this accusation by Mrs. J toward the utterly charming Mr MacYoung: First, if Animal has any gang activities rest assured they are COMPLETELY disorganized, in utter disarray, and a TOTAL shambles. AND, any he associates with have been trying to cope with their anger issues for years, with his help! Oh, and I don't think he -ever- became an adult. ;) HTH!! - -B ___ baj7dvirginia[dot]edu ------------------------------ From: "Buz Grover" Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 13:05:21 -0400 Subject: eskrima: Ms. J & the DBs Ms. J: Plenty of folks have and doubtless will respond to the content of your inquiry into the Dog Brothers' ethos; I'd like to point out a couple of the processes contained therein that leave me perplexed. <<. . . again do not take this as a personal attack. . . .>> << Please remember this is not an attack. . . .>> <<. . . again like i said the post was not an attack . . . .>> Perhaps there is nothing personal here, but you can't quite call your posts impersonal, either. You are questioning the tenets of someone's art, implying brain damage is an integral element of how that art is practiced, and suggesting information is being irresponsibly conveyed to the young and impressionable. If your various posts do not contain attacks then we need to coin a new term for what they do contain. As it stands it appears you wish to denigrate a practice without being held accountable for doing so. << . . so tell me how are you getting that message out to the kids that are just seeing the pictures and have no understanding of what you are doing?>> <<. . .what was posted was to get others to think about what we put out there and what the realty's are on the children and woman in society. . . .>> << . . .because i had to explain it to my boys, they wanted to know why.... none of them read the story's there boring but the pics are what they see. . . .>> It is plain that you care deeply about what is being conveyed to children and worry what is being conveyed will impact those who find themselves in an abusive relationship. It is further quite apparent that your work has greatly influenced your worldview. There's nothing wrong with any of that. However, it seems you are seeking to export your worldview, demanding that others uncritically adopt your perspective. This sort of evangelizing may play well with the converted, but it sounds shrill and two-dimensional to a sinner like me. If you are seeking converts, I'd suggest adopting other methods. If a posture of moral superiority is your end, by golly I think you're there. With that said, for my money the best thing you can do to address your concerns about what is conveyed to children is have your students take their sticks to the TV. That device has an impact orders of magnitude beyond the materials that inspired this thread. Finally, you wouldn't show up to train Eskrima in a pair of hip waders with a bucket on your head grasping a plumber's friend. I'd like to suggest it's a bad idea to write expository prose in a similarly haphazard manner. I think your ardor interferes with your ability to express yourself; the resulting prose leaves plenty of room for confusion, ire, and misinterpretation. Regards, Buz Grover ------------------------------ From: "Johnaleen" Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 13:11:32 -0400 Subject: eskrima: Re: Ms.. Js---defense --- the hanging Judge...:) 1) its better that i ask these questions now because my kids are asking them in class... We are TALKING about KIDS.. this was never what and adault can and cant do but children under the age of 18... and the questions they are coming to me for.. and asking me in a normal Class.. Note: in Marcs defense when they did come to me and ask me about it based just on just the pics... i brought the artical out and read it with them and then incourraged them to read the things that go with it and understand all that goes behind the Pack and there events... 2) i dont advocate one way or the other as the right way... regardless of what my personal choices are i will never personally advocate going in the park and fully sparing without gear on and i listed the reasons why, again though that is my as i said here Personal View... and i stated why it was... but if i have a student that has been though one of my programs? 4) i have to make sure i am not going to be called on or have the program pulled out from under someone because of legality's and bad press... i want these childern and woman to be able to do what they want with the money that is alocated for them to take classes in FMA or MA or Self Defense classes... Even if it means going into the park and sparing with the DGBS 5) i know exactly who is who and where they are... and who is what family and what org.. just because i dont come on here and say Hey dudes i have 70 million dollars in grants to pay for programs to victims and children so that they can take self defense and martial arts class nationally... and that half of the larger national ma and FMA orgs are part of what we are doing already and have given me there endorsements and support, it dose not mean i have no clue who i will be sending students too.. I have been busy... 6) i dont have to be right or wrong... this is not a question of weather any of us are right or wrong its a question of what i am going to face in the press nationally when i am there teaching the kids-woman- and men that are victims because the questions came up when i was teaching my normal FMA students.. 7) some of you may feel like your Ginny pigs because of this... please dont... i came here and asked the questions not to the government or to others, i came here because i knew i would get your Real reactions and i had to see what kind of Real reactions i was going to get now before i make noise nationally in the press.. and remember PLEASE these are real questions that my children have asked me... 8) i dont want more government regulations put on us as organizations but with all the negative things out there and all the things that are making the government want to put restrictions on us as teachers and educators in the arts... and then my kids in class come to me about the DGBS its going to be what will come out when i have students that want to go to there deals and have it paid for... so i came here first and asked the questions... 9) i will be honest with any that ask me what i feel is right overall but... i will always qualify this as to being what is right for me and that we are individuals and things are different for each... even after i tell my students that i don't think sparing in the park in just shorts is a smart thing to do... if they want to do it well then, i will stand by them and be there when they do... i will even take the pics for them wile they do it... granted i would be careful where i put them and how i qualified them to be sure... 10) when it comes to stats and data that you are looking for on line in regards to what i sometimes make reference to here... you will not find most of what i am quoting on line because i did not get the information on line, i instead went directly to the source in each case i.e. the police departments the government agency's and so forth... eventually these stats will be published on line in my site for the program... but i cant do it all and i cant get it all there on line right now... remember i have a National Program to run and get sorted and databased... if i did not have the stats and actual data though, and the records were not correct i would not have money for the program... 11) many asked what Ms J wants?..... I wanted your reactions to what i will face in the press and overall in the communty... and i got a good idea for sure... and i belive i know what i have to do next..Remember my intent is to be sure to cover these things before i have to face them with the goverment and press... i dont want things to be made worse because i dont have the answers i need... 12) i had to recently defended the FATE program and all of the FMA and MA- Healing organzations in the arts in Court the other day... I know what i am facing... I want to be sure i make things better for everyone instead of worse and causing problmes.. at the end of the day... the Judge said we have a Fine program and its needed............:) " that was a far cry from his frist words of.... "so we are teaching violance with violance and breading a socity of vigial anties" his words not mine and based on him just seeing the word Martial Arts and Self-Defense on my busness card.... He never read the rest of the card or the letter that was attached, before he was up screaming this across the court room.. and he is what most would call a hanging Judge... points for Animal and his Wife: 1) many wont understand the comments i made in reference to Animal but that's ok because i have many that do understand them... and again if there ever becomes a question legally about it... we all have the letters that were sent in privet email that have been attacked this way by him and his wife.. 2) Also anything that these 2 people did to me personally.. i do not hold against the pack or any other organization... they are fully responsible on there own... 3) Animal you came to me and asked me for information about why woman go back, when i offered you a place, you refused and tried to charge me money for information you were trying to get from me. 4) so just because you now claim your wife did this or did that, why come to me and ask me for the information? if your so experienced and know it all then, you should have the answers there with your wife... and again remember this string did not start till Animal asked the questions..oh yeah Next time you want Guro Dans phone number and address dont ask me for it... go to your pack as far as me being a FEM-Nazi... that's really funny... almost as funny as being a dojo darling.. Ms J........ :) Ps... Marc Kiss the Maro for me... oh and scratch his back he likes it.....:) if anyone dose not know yet or have the address... FATE organizations Masters list is done on line and we have a new guest book... http://www.f-a-t-e.org/Bios/masters%20Bios/Masters.html the guest book link is on the bottom of the masters page... ps.... i am going to take a break from the digest for a week and will be out networking this program and setting up the national base of operations... 'All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes to make it possible - - - - T. E. Lawrence (Lawrence of Arabia) ------------------------------ From: "Johnaleen" Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 13:47:57 -0400 Subject: eskrima: Re: little fight guy Ray***Then it sounds like we do agree afterall. Or perhaps you were really disagreeing with my statement that the little fight guy could kick your butt. :)*** man i have had my butt kicked by the old, the fat, the tall, the short, and the little fight guy.........:) Ms J... disappears for a week....... ------------------------------ From: Jivita@aol.com Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 15:08:27 EDT Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #201 I’ve read with great interest the recent Ms. J DB thread. I think Loki Jorgenson has said it best. I agree with Mark Denny that this is very FMA related and an important topic. Although I don’t see as he does that Ms. J. has some how mistaken Mr. MacYoung as a Dog Brother. What I’m hearing from her is that perhaps she’s feels Animal is somehow glamorizing his past gang experience and that the two are linked in that her kids have questions about what they see. (Not that Animal is glamorizing his past but I’ve known people (adults) without the proper grounding probably who say, “Hey, this guys a knife fighter”. Cool!” They then after seeing one of his videos go around like some sort of weekend SOF- abgain not Animals fault. The same people go around thinking they are “Joe contact stick fighter” after seeing a Dog Brothers video. They horse around in practice and generally have to be thumped. :) (Not the DB fault and I’m usually too happy to be the one to do the thumping.) I also agree with the fellow who said that we tend to underestimate the intelligence and understand of children. As a child, I always thought that adults underestimated my level of understanding. While the maturity and grounding may not have been there to see the larger scope of things, that is outside of the context of my life, I had a pretty good grasp on things as they relate to right/wrong, good/bad, violence/non-violence, self defense/ aggression. Now as an adult I have tried to remember this when I deal with children. I think children ask questions of adults to add credence to or debunk the things that they see and read. Approval or disapproval from a trusted source is very important to a child. It’s an important part of their learning process and there’s nothing wrong with it. Ms J. is to commended for being that source. It is of course the parents responsibility to monitor their child's activity, etc., etc., ad naseum but FMA it’s our responsibility and in our best interest to portray ourselves to public (not just children) in the best possible light. If the public isn’t getting it, then perhaps we need to look at how the message is communicated and make a change. (Change the method of communication, not the message.) Why it this important….the repeated attempts at MA legislation comes to mind. These are just my thoughts on the subject. I don’t think we should jump through hoops for people or worry incessantly whether “my message is getting across correctly”. I know I don’t but if I find that people are repeated saying “X” and my message is “Y”, then I look at the disconnect between “X” and “Y”. Regards. Jim Lowe ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 14:17:24 PDT Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #202 **************************************** To unsubscribe from the eskrima-digest send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and the Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.