From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #218 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Tues, 8 May 2001 Vol 08 : Num 218 In this issue: eskrima: TKD Vs Muay Thai eskrima: fyi, Krabi-Krabong eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #217 eskrima: RE: Kyuk Too Ki eskrima: MuayThai conditioning Re: eskrima: RE: Kyuk Too Ki eskrima: . ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1300 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Mike Inay (1944-2000), Founder of the Inayan System of Eskrima. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima-Digest at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "WEE Shin Hoe" Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 09:09:23 +0800 Subject: eskrima: TKD Vs Muay Thai Ray said: FWIW, I too have never seen anyone kick as fast or as hard as an -elite- level TKD player. They make the pro muay Thai and kick boxing folks look like they are moving in slo-mo. No bull... But they -do- play by different rules and kick boxing rules are a bit closer to 'the street' than are TKD rules. Response: Dear Ray, I agree with you, TKD masters do kick faster than Muay Thai boxers. I do not know about the standard of TKD in US, but back in the 70's, there used to be a lot of tournaments between Muay Thai boxers and the rest of the martial arts in my country. We have top masters of Silat, Karate, Kung Fu and TKD from Hong Kong, Korea and Japan trying their skill against Muay Thai boxers. To the best of my knowledge, none of them survived more than three rounds!. It is not that Muay Thai are more superior than the other arts, it is the way they are trained. A typical Muay Thai boxer will start training in a boxing camp at the age of about 8 or 9 years. Trained three times a day and seven-days a week. He will have his first bout in the ring at the age of 12. Before he is 20 years old, he'd compete in more than 100 full contact bouts. How do you fight against a fighter who are so well-conditioned that they kick coconut trees and telephone poles at full- force for trainings and so powerful that their shins can break your elbows? On top of that, they are trained to ignore their pain and injuries and continue fighting. Sincerely, S. H. Wee ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 18:48:17 PDT Subject: eskrima: fyi, Krabi-Krabong With this recent muay Thai chatter... A Visit with Ajarn Sumai, Krabi-Krabong Master, Bangkok, Thailand By Terry Tippie (with a little help from Greg Nelson) The Buddhai Swan Sword Fighting Institute is a place where the ancient weapons based art of Kabri-Kabrong, the mother art of Muay Thai, is taught to young Thais, the Thai military and, recently, martial arts enthusiasts from around the world. Buddhist discipline and tradition are also an integral part of the training. I visited the school briefly in late 1994. The school is located in suburban Bangkok and has a thatched roof that stretches out over a large open-air training area trimmed all around with tropical ferns, flowers and vines. The walls served as racks for a storehouse of well-used weapons. Students, many of them high-school age, were dressed in the bright blue pants and tunic of the Buddhai Swan school. They worked in groups of two or more and focused on their training with all the seriousness of professional fighters. My eyes were drawn to two men circling each other with double swords, knees bent, eyes locked. The taller man stepped forward and initiated a savage combination of powerful alternating slashes, which the shorter man skillfully blocked, sending sparks from the steel blades showering across the floor. Then the smaller one shot back a foot jab to the taller man’s solar plexus that knocked his opponent to the ground and leapt at him with a fully committed two hand slash that carried all the intensity of a Muay Thai kick. Ajarn Sumai Masamarn, Founder and Director of the Buddhai Swan school, rounded the corner and strode towards me with a vast smile and a firm handshake. I had been told Ajarn Sumai is ‘very young’ for a man in his 80s, but still I was amazed at his agility and vigor, which is like a 25 year old. He guided me through the school, explaining the training and taking opportunities to point out its history. Ajarn Sumai had been a champion saber fencer and judoka in his youth, but turned to Kabri-Kabrong at an early age. By the time he was in his late 20s, his skill at Kabri-Kabrong was renowned. Upon the opening of the school in 1934, the King of Thailand himself paid a visit to the school and gave Ajarn Sumai a flag which still hangs with pride in the school. Today the Buddhai Swan is the only government recognized institution dedicated to the development and maintenance of Kabri-Kabrong. Ajarn Sumai explained that Kabri-Kabrong consists of six different weapon categories: Staff, gnow (bladed staff), single sword, double sword, mai sau (wooden club worn on the forearm), and the combination of spear and shield. In addition, Kabri-Kabrong utilizes empty-hand techniques that are the battlefield ancestors of modern day Muay Thai. The intense methods of training full force with live blades, weapon against weapon, make this art extremely combat effective and no-nonsense. Each of their weapons has certain attributes which are unique, yet all are equally effective in skilled hands. During training the practitioner will first learn the weapons matched against the same weapon. As time and learning progress, each weapon is matched against the other in order to learn the strengths and weaknesses associated with each. Drills involving all the weapon categories are combined to form extravagant demonstrations and effective drills for combat reflexes. Despite its roots in the military clashes fought by the Siamese army, Kabri-Kabrong involves spirituality and tradition that is very important to the Thai people. Upon enrolling at the Buddhai Swan, students go through a ceremony in which they will be protected from injury. During this ceremony, they promise to uphold five principles of the Buddhai Swan: 1) always speak the truth and do not deceive others, 2) never steal, 3) never take life in vain (this applies to both animals and humans), 4) refrain from incest or wrongful sex, and 5) abstain from alcohol and other mind altering drugs. As part of the initiation ceremony, students are brought into the proud brotherhood of the Buddhai Swan, which extends to countless Thai royalty, the Thai military, and generations of young Thais. Before each training session, match or demonstration, it is essential to perform the dance-like Wai Kru ceremony. The Wai Kru are ceremonies which are deeply embedded in Thai culture and their Buddhist beliefs. The Wai Kru pays homage to the practitioner’s deity, their mother and father, their instructor and all those who have passed away teaching the art. Each moment of the Wai Kru is significant and Thai people observing the dance can identify its meaning. Each weapon has two Wai Kru, one standing and one kneeling. Each is highly elaborate and a great deal of training time is spent learning this part of the art. Ajarn Sumai emphasized that it is very important to have a clear mind and a good heart when training with live blades. [The original article had some awesome pictures of Ajarn Sumai and training at the Buddhai Swan school.] ____________________________________________________________________ Bangkok: Getting There Can Be Half the Fun By Terry Tippie The travel to and from the Buddhai Swan school proved to be almost as much of an adventure as the school itself. So severe are Bangkok’s dawn-till-late-night traffic jams that my meeting across town took most of the day. The traffic noise was deafening, and the air was a yellowish broth of humidity and exhaust fumes. Oversized gas powered golf carts called ‘tuk-tuks’—so named because of the sound they made idling in traffic—darted from lane to lane and between cars and trucks with terrifying speed. Built for two, some carried five or six passengers or a dozen boxes of cargo. The downtown sidewalks were full of people, from harried business people scurrying to make a living to street vendors proclaiming the merits of their authentic discount "never can tell, Boss," jewelry. Some areas had plenty of Japanese and Europeans seeking thrills in Bangkok's sex industry. Elsewhere were the golden spires of ornately carved Buddhist temples containing saffron-robed monks, serene and virtuous. In the afternoon, after my first visit to the Buddhai Swan school, the sky darkened, opened up and poured forth rain with reckless abandon, filling the flat, marshy land with puddles and ponds. The rain minimized visibility and made the already nerve-wracking driving conditions even worse. Ajarn Sumai’s son, who I was honored to have as my guide, turned his 4-wheel drive off the main road and wound his way through a maze of narrow back roads, sometimes crossing flooded areas that would have washed out most other vehicles. “Bangkok...very traffic," he said. I agreed. By twilight the still racing city was a remarkable combination of old, new, ornate, garish, tasteful, and atrocious architecture all slapped down in a random pattern with no real center. At dusk, almost as if a switch had been thrown, the rain ended as quickly as it came. I was glad to arrive back at the home of the Sirisute family, my favorite place in all of Thailand. The simple, sincere warmth and playful humor of these people re-defined for me the very meaning of the word "hospitality". And a home cooked Thai meal made from a delightful mixture of spices was just the thing to welcome a hungry traveler. ------------------------------ From: AnimalMac@aol.com Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 21:59:25 EDT Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #217 In a message dated 5/7/01 6:23:49 PM Mountain Daylight Time, eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << The word got around, and for years the new guys would never take the bet, because they had heard about all the guys who got knocked down by the guy who just got stunned. A case of marketing over functionality- they just don't work, in most cases. >> I have a standing bet for people who claim they can take pepperspray and not go down. I ask them if that goes for a spray AND a kick to the nuts...not necessarily in that order. Oddly enough, nobody has ever taken me up on it. It all kinds of boils down to a very common misconception. Basically NO ONE tool is guaranteed to do the job. If you rely on one thing to do everything for you, you are going to be really, REALLY disappointed. This is especially true when you realize that a "known" type of pain can be resisted. For example, someone who is accustomed to being hit, can and will take blows without batting an eye, much less slow down...or worse, you hit him and he gets more pissed. However, against an unexpected and different kind of pain you can easily catch someone's attention. That same person who can shake off an impact will often be stunned against a dragon swat (a palm strike, where the fingers dig in and then squeeze/crush). When combined with moves that induce other kinds of pain, it is hard to ignore a "known" pain, which brings back its original effectiveness. Unfortunately, if you are overly reliant on one system, you can not react fast enough and shift gears if that proves to be ineffective against your opponent. That's why I advocate offering a buffet of pain. Not just one kind. That I have found has a far better track record than relying on only one thing. Animal ------------------------------ From: Justo370@aol.com Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 22:22:30 EDT Subject: eskrima: RE: Kyuk Too Ki From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 9:06:49 PDT Subject: Re: eskrima: Muay Thai/Kyuk Too Ki/etc. Hello sir. Can you tell me more about the Korean style of Muay Thai Kickboxing, which you have described as "Kyuk Too Ki"? Is their a website address or some literature that I may research regarding this style? If not, can you tell me certain things about this style, such as, philosophy, techniques, types of conditioning, etc.? Thank you in advance for your anticipated assistance in this matter. I look forward to your response. ------------------------------ From: "Jay de Leon" Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 20:06:42 -0700 Subject: eskrima: MuayThai conditioning MuayThai kickboxers are not just conditioned to take leg kicks. They are conditioned to take abuse, period. My favorite story is a MuayThai bout I saw in Bangkok (Lumpini stadium?) between two Thai boxers. Somewhere in the middle rounds, one of the boxers gets knocked down by a flurry of hand combinations. To me, it looks like he is out for the count. However, he is saved by the bell as the referee begins the count. His two handlers pick the semi-conscious boxer up, prop him on his stool which is now over a big basin ("batya" in Pilipino) and proceed to revive him by massaging his whole body, slapping him a few times, pouring water over his head and sticking ice cubes down his shorts. Dripping wet but none the worse for wear, this downed kickboxer fights the remaining rounds and wins on a decision. And how would you like to take that kind of abuse, both from your opponent and your handlers? ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 21:58:22 PDT Subject: Re: eskrima: RE: Kyuk Too Ki > Hello sir. Can you tell me more about the Korean style of Muay Thai Kickboxing, which you have described as "Kyuk Too Ki"? Is their a website address or some literature that I may research regarding this style? If not, can you tell me certain things about this style, such as, philosophy, techniques, types of conditioning, etc.? Info from www.martialartsresource.com. I've seen videotapes for sale in TKD Times magazine. In summary, it is similar to muay Thai, without the ceremony but with doboks (uniforms). "Kyuk Too Ki is one name for kickboxing here in Korea. It is usually referred to as "street fighting" and has a reputation of being studied by thugs, gangsters and other suspect ruffians. (Of course, the average Korean has a lower opinion of martial artists than westerners do.) Kyuk Too Ki students practice in similar fashion to Muay Thai but without the religious and ceremonial aspects. Training is tough and demanding. My first HKD instructor also taught this style so I got to see a fair bit of their practices. Part of the black belt test in that school's Kyuk Too Ki program was to fight continuously for 15 minutes against 3, dan ranked, hapkido-in one at a time, five minutes (or until submission) at a time. It was an intense sight. In practices, the students concentrated on knee and elbow strikes as well as the usual array of low, middle and high kicks. Emphasis was placed mainly on close range fighting and cardiovascular endurance. Tolerance of pain was also highly stressed." Ray Terry ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 23:04:10 PDT Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #218 **************************************** To unsubscribe from the eskrima-digest send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and the Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.