From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #222 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Wed, 9 May 2001 Vol 08 : Num 222 In this issue: eskrima: Low Kicks eskrima: UFC vs. WWF...Let's Be Careful eskrima: Re: 12 hour seminar in Doce Pares eskrima: Stages in Martial Life eskrima: Re: FMA teaching Question? Hubud eskrima: www.angelsdisciples.com eskrima: Taking up Eskrima at an advanced age eskrima: Pepper spray, stun guns, and kicks (oh my) eskrima: . ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1300 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Mike Inay (1944-2000), Founder of the Inayan System of Eskrima. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima-Digest at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: kalkiusa@netscape.net Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 11:02:56 -0400 Subject: eskrima: Low Kicks >The longer we explore the more complete the circle becomes... :) Amen cousin. My most recent Korean instructor was the first person to speak of the various martial "ways" as a circle. Too often people think of them in a linear way ... hard/soft, internal/external, grappling/striking, etc. We have natural attributes which we can use in fighting. We have (hopefully) active intelligence to devise ways to exploit those natural attributes ... and imagination to vary and find new and hopefully better ways. It's inevitable to find similarities since we all work with the same natural attributes, characteristic ranges of motion, possibilities in coordination, etc. After years of spinning and jumping, etc. (Northern Shaolin/Tae Kwon Do) I decided to focus on the cross kick (that one that's similar to Ji Han Jae's #1), low roundhouse, and low sidekick. One has to keep the intricate/gymnastic maneuvers honed to use them well in fighting (like a pushbutton automatic, you know what I mean :-) I might have knocked someone out with spinning or jump-spinning hook kick 20 years ago, but in Close Quarters and almost 50 now I'd use the cross kick to break their leg instead (ref. previous post). Hey, if the leg don't break, ya just keep goin' down to the foot and stomp. Then it's knee time. Some focus on kneeing to the torso ... I focus on kneeing the legs, e.g., where we might otherwise throw the roundkick ... quickly/smoothly leads into tripping and sweeps. Hapkido, good stuff. That last Korean teacher that I spoke of was also Hapkido master (Kwan Jang Nim). Thinking street fight, I'd take Hapkido over TKD anyday ... for my own use that is. OK, rambling here ... better get back to work. Mitakeyu Oyasin. Be well, Mik __________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Webmail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 9:10:06 PDT Subject: eskrima: UFC vs. WWF...Let's Be Careful An excellent post from the_dojang list (KMA). Thought I'd share it over here. Ray - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Forwarded message: Subject: the_dojang: UFC vs. WWF...Let's Be Careful From: "Craig Stovall" Well, I haven't posted in a while, but this is a subject that is near and dear to my heart... "How many people believe that the UFC is more “real” than the WWF?" In Japan, there's a very fine line between a match that is a legitimate "shoot", and one that is a "work". Basically, irregardless of whether it's a shoot or a work...the fighters are still beating the ever-living hell out of each other. This is in stark contrast to American "works" (such as what we see in the WWF) where both "fighters" are making every effort to protect each other, and no real violence is taking place. However, in Japan the only diference is that the outcome (who wins and who loses) is predetermined...the kicks, punches, and chokes are still real. This is a difficult concept for some people to understand. Also confusing is the overlap that we see (primarily in Japan) between NHB-type fighting, and what westerners might define as "pro rasslin". The now defunct UWFI comes to mind as a good example. These fights were made to resemble "shoot" style matches, but the outcomes were pre-determined, and the "violence" was watered down just enough to protect the fighters (although knockouts happened from time-to-time). The Japanese fight fans (for the most part) understood the nature of these matches...bottom line, the Japanese don't CARE if a fight is a "work" as long as it's entertaining. A more recent example is the "Pride" fighting tournament in Japan, that in many ways has supplanted the UFC as the world's premiere NHB fighting contest. Lending even more confusion is the fact that the earlier shows actually had "worked" matches on the same card as true NHB matches. More recently the Pride event has moved toward 100% legit matches with no predetermined outcome...but the "stigma" (at least in the eyes of some western fight fans) remains. Another fact is that many fighters drift between the world of true NHB, and "works" (trust me...the worked matches pay more money). NHB champions such as Don Frye, Dan Severn, Mark Coleman, Ken Shamrock, Kazushi Sakuraba, and Bas Rutten have all done worked matches in Japan. Some of these works were shoot style (made to resemble real NHB fighting), and others (Don Frye is a good example) were pure over-the-top "pro rasslin" style matches. Recently, the famous Antonio Inoki put on a "pro rasslin" type show that included Shamrock, Rutten, Coleman, and Renzo Gracie (that's right...RENZO GRACIE). Kazushi Sakuraba is probably the best example of a fighter that has seamlessly transitioned between the worlds of "shoots" and "works". "Sak" started his career as a freestyle wrestler, and was even good enough to earn a spot as an alternate on the Japanese Olympic team. Sak later moved into the world of "works" by training and fighting under the UWFI banner as a shootfighter. Sak also performs as a masked pro wrestler (fans know him as Super Strong Machine) in true "pro rasslin" matches (I think with the New Japan organization). Of course, Sak is best known for the swath that he has cut through the world of NHB. Currently, he is the top middle-weight NHB fighter in the world (despite being knocked out recently by Vanderlei Silva), and has four victories against Royce, Renzo, Ryan, and Royler...yes, their last name being GRACIE. As far as the UFC being more real than the WWF...here's where we have to be careful. One should not look at the EVENT so much as you should look at individual MATCHES. IMHO, the UFC does not condone or coordinate the showing of worked matches. However, even a cursory review of the UFC's history will show some interesting moments. Kazushi Sakuraba's shocking armbar victory over "Conan" Silviera at UFC Japan has long been rumored to have been a work...word even has it that the Yakuza paid big money to Conan in order to take a dive for the local boy. The match remains a subject of internet debate to this day. At that same event, a VERY curious match occurred between Vitor Belfort and Joe Charles. It was curious in that not a single punch was thrown during the course of the match, and ended in a submission victory for Belfort. This was shocking given Belfort's history of pummeling opponents into submission. Later, when pressed on the matter, Belfort retorted that he wanted to showcase his BJJ submission skills to the world...however, this doesn't explain why Charles never threw a single strike. The consensus view is that both fighters agreed beforehand not to exchange blows, but rather have a pure grappling match. No...not a predetermined outcome, but there was evidence of cullusion. Another quick example is the lightning quick victory of Oleg Taktarov over Anthony Macias at an early UFC via guillotine choke from the guard. In the replay, Macias can be seen pointing and winking to Oleg from across the ring...moments before he literally offers his neck to Oleg on a silver platter. Did I mention that these two were good friends outside the octagon? Given that...it's still quite ridiculous (even for discussion's sake) to try and compare the UFC to the WWF. By and large, the UFC is legitimate NHB fighting. The fights that you see are real, and have no predetermined criteria as to how the fight will take place, or who will be the winner. >From time-to-time, it appears that individual fighters have taken some matters into their own hands, but the promoters are deadset against this. Remember, American NHB fans are RABIDLY opposed to works and exhibition fights...anything less than true NHB is perceived as "cheap" and "unethical". If you're going to do a work...call it a work. But don't try and pass off works as NHB, because American fans will let you have it across the myriad of message boards that cater to the true NHB fans...some of the battles that happen there are more interesting than the fights themselves. So, IMHO...there's no comparison between what you see in the WWF and what you see in the UFC, King of the Cage, Superbrawl, IVC, Rage in the Cage, etc. Fight fans are very savvy...we know the difference between a "real fight" and a "stiff work". We also know the history of our sport very well, and are well aware of the interconnection between legitimate fighting and the world of "fight entertainment"...we know the personalities and we know the organizations. Truthfully, the only people who could possibly be "fooled" are the ones that have never watched much of either. In the end, the two have always existed side-by-side...and they always will. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: "Johnaleen" Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 12:45:29 -0400 Subject: eskrima: Re: 12 hour seminar in Doce Pares ***its one paid up front 12 hour seminar in Doce Pares- to get to instructor level (blackbelt) in the style for current instructors of the organization.***** 800 hours latter someone tells me this........:( Before i received my instructor level (blackbelt) in FMA, i was also required to teach an additional 100 hours before i could be fully ranked for teaching... when i grew up quality was not based on money spent.... but on the out put of what you were giving to others or Producing... i cant Personally imagine teaching anyone enough to black belt them in any martial art in 12 hours...i agree with Steve here as well though.. ***Sometimes it can work out really well to spread the arts. Reaching out to people, getting people involved, capturing imaginations, informing....*** For Me.... It all comes down to intent really... is it your intent to make massive amounts of money fast? or is it your intent to preserve the art and keep the core there for others to grow with and share? is your intent is to produce Quality first or money first...? i would rather die broke and know that the quality came first... as the money i did not make, i cant not take with me anyway.... but what i leave as my legacy in teachers or people that were students under me carry things forward showing the Quality that i was able to produce based on the teachers i leave when i die.... Note: these are my personal opinions..........:) though as Steve said ***Its a bit of a taboo subject really so I'll tread lightly :)**** i dont want hate mail again...........:) Ms J........... ------------------------------ From: kalkiusa@netscape.net Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 13:39:39 -0400 Subject: eskrima: Stages in Martial Life The model that I was introduced to in kung fu training was to first learn how to take care of the body and the mind. Sensibility and reasoning in training spending most training time at no more than 70% exertion. Long term view from the beginning ... to train and use methods early in life that we will still be able to do later in life, rely on method more than muscle. I've commented on this before ... make power the last concern. Pursuing power as primary concern can lead to shorter effective "careers." Maintenance is #1. So, if we pursue conditioning methods they should reflect this awareness. Conditioning to the extreme can hurt anyone. Re: cancer and the leg conditioning (abuse?) no one knows all of the dynamics of normal and pathological physiology. One thing that is certain, we have to pay for abusing the body (and the mind). Too often we pursue greater abilities out of order with the speed of life. Koyaanisquatsi (Life Out of Balance). Shows up in all our rel! ationships. Mitakeyu Oyasin. Be well, Mik __________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Webmail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ ------------------------------ From: "Johnaleen" Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 14:45:09 -0400 Subject: eskrima: Re: FMA teaching Question? Hubud I have an FMA Question...........:) its really for those of you that either teach or have been taught the concepts of either empty hand or stick applications of the Hubud.. if you dont teach it or have learned it then the question will not apply... i really am trying to make 2 selective questions... 1) when did you start training in the concepts and applications of Hubud? i.e. was it first off with your instructor or did your teacher wait for a few months? 2) as a teacher that teaches the concept, when do you introduce it into your teaching format of FMA? Ms J......:) ------------------------------ From: "Matthew Esparrago" Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 11:57:26 -0700 Subject: eskrima: www.angelsdisciples.com Greetings, The Angel's Disciples Escrima Association is proud to announce the launch of their official website: www.angelsdisciples.com This site was constructed to honor, celebrate and continue the proliferation of Cabales Serrada Escrima. Please visit and share your thoughts. Warm regards, Matt Esparrago Co-Director School of Pilipino Mastery Arts _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: "jose saguisabal" Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 13:45:15 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Taking up Eskrima at an advanced age I agree that most FMA practitioners begin study at a late age. Mostly because their exposure to the arts came via another martial art. Blame the media or whatever, but most beginners who walk in the door wouldn't appreciate FMA's simplicity, so it would take that person years to gain a respect for the art. However, what gets me is how some guy takes up the art at 35 years old and he's out selling tapes and seminars as an "expert" at 40. Eskrima, as most practice it, is not as hard on the bones in later years so it would really be suitable to an older guy who does not wish to mix it up with a thug on the streets ala GJJ ala K-1 ala Enter the Dragon. I think it's a good thing; FMA may one day be up there alongside Tai Chi in the senior citizen centers. The FMAs are more versatile than many of us think, and as an art suitable for older folks is something I hadn't really thought of before... Good day! Jay Get 250 color business cards for FREE! http://businesscards.lycos.com/vp/fastpath/ ------------------------------ From: Joshua Hutchinson Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 16:04:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eskrima: Pepper spray, stun guns, and kicks (oh my) I agree with you on throwing in some firearms training from time to time (or as often as you can afford to blow ammo like there's no tomorrow!) As for Ayoob's stuff..., impressing to say the least. Four winds, JHutchin _______________________________________________________ Send a cool gift with your E-Card http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/ ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 16:42:28 PDT Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #222 **************************************** To unsubscribe from the eskrima-digest send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and the Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.