From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #233 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Wed, 16 May 2001 Vol 08 : Num 233 In this issue: eskrima: Hard-Won Wisdom facelift eskrima: Remy Presas eskrima: Request for testimonials eskrima: My comments eskrima: Modern Arnis/Presas brothers early training eskrima: Re: Modern Arnis Update Reply eskrima: silat - kuntao ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1300 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000), Founder of the Inayan System of Eskrima. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima-Digest at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ABurrese@aol.com Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 11:16:57 EDT Subject: eskrima: Hard-Won Wisdom facelift To see the new cover of =93Hard-Won Wisdom=94 check it out at Amazon.com. F= or those that have read it, if you have a second, a review or couple of comm= ents would be greatly appreciated. I=92m trying to take some steps to get t= his new edition noticed. The book is the same, only the cover is different.= I do not have any of the new copies yet, but hope to have some so I can se= ll autographed copies soon. (If anyone is interested, I still have a couple= of the original Paladin editions left) To read parts, including the foreword by Marc =93Animal=94 MacYoung, check i= t out online at iuniverse.com. You can order from them as well. Thanks, and let me know what you think. Yours in Training, Alain Burrese ------------------------------ From: "tim hartman" Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 15:25:00 Subject: eskrima: Remy Presas Greetings, I would like to make some statements about GM Remy Presas' history. Prof. started training as a child (5 or 6 years old) from his grandfather in the family art. As a teen Remy went out to see the world. He would travel and train a little here and there and fought (No armor & real sticks). He eventually hooked up with Anciong Bacon (founder of Balintawak Eskrima) Before Remy left Cebu he became Anciong's #2 fighter only second to Delfin Lopez. After leaving Cebu Remy formed Modern Arnis. Remy saw that the filipino martial arts were losing popularity. Shotokan karate was becoming very popular so Remy went into action. He adopted the use of uniforms and belts were very appealing (which is why Tae Kwon Do Schools are so popular today) and started calling his art Filipino Karate. These were some of the marketing tools Remy used with many other Filipinos also started to use to combat the popularity of these foreign arts. If you have any question you should do yourself a favor and get a copy of Remy's Pink book Modern Arnis Philippine Martial Art "Stick Fighting". In the back are many pictures from when Remy lived in the Philippines and you can see what this man was about. It is true that he formed a sport aspect so people can compete SAFELY if they want, but if you know him you would know that reality is what he worried most about. Hopefully this was informative, I would get into more detail but I don't have the time right now. Yours Truly, Datu Timothy J.Hartman E-mail wnyima@hotmail.com School site www.wmarnis.com/school/ Federation site www.wmarnis.com M.A. Supplies www.warriorsden.com _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: AnimalMac@aol.com Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 11:54:53 EDT Subject: eskrima: Request for testimonials From Marc Animal MacYoung Well, folks my dearly beloved just came back from a web design class and we spent a significant part of last night (well okay before Buffy came on) going over what we need to do to improve the design of our home page. ("What do you mean "We" white man?" ... okay, so I'm going to be busy.) All sorts of cool tricks were learned (like ditch the frames and excessive graphics -- most people's systems are just too slow). However, the one thing that the workshop guy stressed, marketing gurus stress, Peyton Quinn stresses and I think is just as tacky as hell are testimonials. I have to do them. But, just because I am being dragged into effective marketing doesn't mean I have to go graciously or quietly. Fortunately I'll be able to stick them on a separate page...and as a last great act of defiance (for those of you who remember the old t-shirt of the eagle and the mouse) I'm going to put links into the testimonials. Part of the reason I hate testimonials is my immediate knee jerk reaction to them is "who is this gushing Gus and why should I listen to him?". So I figure I'll answer that question with a link. Which provides a "Oh, THAT Masaad Ayoob" for the sceptical. Right now the list is reading like either a who's who list of the SD world or the FBI's most wanted list ...I'm not sure which. So here it is folks, I am requesting you to send me - privately - any recommendations, endorsements, first hand experience from training or warm fuzzys about what you have learned from me or what you think of my work. Again, please respond privately. Just a line or two. My website is http://www.diac.com/~dgordon If you choose to respond, please include your URL along with rank, title, profession, company name, title of your books etc, etc. Like I said, I'm going to turn this into a second link page. Thank you in advance Marc ------------------------------ From: "jose saguisabal" Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 11:20:51 -0700 Subject: eskrima: My comments Statement 1: Remy Presas learned Eskrima as a teenager from Arnolfo Mongcal who taught him for 6 months. Mongcal was the only Escrima teacher of Remy Presas. Mr. Presas combined his limited knowledge about Eskrima with japanese martial arts to create a sport oriented system he called Modern Arnis." - --Extremely an unfair statement! While Mr. Mongcal may have been a teacher of RP, he is in no way the ONLY instructor. RP was the first ambassador of the Philippine martial arts appointed by late Pres. Marcos, and a committee of Manila's top Arnisadors. They would not bestow such an honor to a man with limited knowledge. Wherever he got this MISinformation, it must have come from a jealous sideline commentator. Anyway, at that time, most empty hand techniques incorporated into the FMA styles techniques from Japanese arts...and not only was this popular and widespread at the time, but it gave one's style status. The "purists" were looked down upon as "not keeping up with the times". Today, it's considered a move up to have students abroad, whether or not they actually learned your entire system (nor if they are any good). Statement 2 In authentic FMA there are no training clothes, no costumes or pyjamas are worn. There are no titles like Datu (Please NO comment on the Datu. This topic has bees dicussed widely in this forum and the different positions are clear). There are no forms or katas in FMA. - --Totally agree, but only for traditional styles. But anyone can use these things. I think most of the major systems do, since the popularity boom has brought foreigners to our shores looking for Black Belts, Chaliko tops, and "sayaw" (not to mention techniques like panantukan and dumug and kinomutay, which aren't really in the FMA, but we'll teach it to you if you explain to us what you're talking about). If you want to be marketable to the foreigners, you'd better have these things in place when they get here. But then, once a tradition in your style makes it past two generations, it becomes recognized as a "tradition" by the **Pilipino** FMA community. So, in a way, the statement is false, because there are some folks who have had these things in their systems for many generations (considering a generation now turns over in 5 or 6 seminars...or two one week visits to the PI). Statement 3: Modern Arnis adopted some movement elements from Eskrima, but it developed into pure movement system. - --Disagree. Modern Arnis **is** Eskrima. All of Presas' books prior to his arrival to US shores referred to his art as "eskrima", although the name is "Modern Arnis". I've got three of them. Modern Arnis seems to emphasize knowledge of technique, and as this knowledge becomes part of your reflex, your natural movement reflects the technique you learn. If it was pure movement, then there would be a smaller emphasis on practicing drills and technique combos. I think a good example of a (semi)pure movement system would be Cacoy's DP, which emphasizes sensitivity and reflex in sparring, rather than the usual tap-tap-tap drilling sequences. But these are just MY opinion, since I'm not even an expert in my own system. But did I get it right Modern Arnis practicioners? And finally, Ron Isla asked: "While I'm certainly not qualified to answer this question, I do have one question myself to you or anyone else in this mailing group. Where exactly does Remy's older brother Ernesto fit into the picture?" - --First, it was my understanding that Ernesto and Roberto are the younger brothers. When Remy left, he was in the process of absorbing the best of all the Eskrima and Arnis systems in the Philippines to create a sort of "best-of-the-best". I believe that Ernesto and Roberto were carrying on that work. My instructor trained under the brothers for a little over a year, and he reports that their art is more "Filipino" in flavor than Remy's. They did have another style they taught aside from the Arnis (which is what they called it), which was the Arjuken Karate style, but it was not mandatory. And when you learned a weapon, you could either get an introduction to the weapon or specialize in it. Roberto travelled constantly to meet other experts and bring home the new information. I think their basics are pretty much the same, but at the higher levels, Remy's style evolved more through personal experimentation, while Ernesto and Roberto added more info from other styles. My instructor's uncle is a friend of Ernesto, and has met Remy several times. He told me that Ernesto said Remy was the better fighter, but in his opinion from watching them both, he thinks Ernesto would be the better fighter. I think both men are past the point where that makes a difference. But regardless of what many have heard they both love each other and have a lot of respect for each other. Get 250 color business cards for FREE! http://businesscards.lycos.com/vp/fastpath/ ------------------------------ From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 14:18:39 EDT Subject: eskrima: Modern Arnis/Presas brothers early training I am very familiar with Modern Arnis in early day even though I was very young when I hear this story from Willy Annang and his groups, this what I know, Remy is the oldest among brothers, Ernesto then Roberto. All of them train first from their father Jose Presas, Then Remy study with Moncal, and was guide by Moncal to study under Grandmaster Anciong Bacon in Balintawak Style of Arnis. Remy Presas also study and earned black in Judo, Karate that what he used to obtain a Job as Physical Education Teacher in his Province. After learning Arnis and see the value of this art He created the "Modern Arnis" and went to Manila to promote the arts on late 60's, later Modern Arnis embrace by the Ministry of Education and Culture and Sport that made Arnis become the choice of colleges and university as one of few P.E. elective class. Remy trained Air Force, Armed Forces of the Philippines, Philippine Police Riot Squad, together with his brothers Ernesto and Roberto. On the mid 70's Remy Presas left Philippine for Kuala Lumpur, Japan then US and never return home eversince. He become the traveling instructor around the US and in the worlds. If you look back to his accomplishments he made the FMA talk of every Martial Arts Magazines, we owe him a lots, like Guro Dan Inosanto, GT Leo Gaje and GM Angel Cabales and others for Promoting the Arts of the Philippines in the worlds. This are the legends of FMA and I respect them highly, I thanks them graciously. With their hard work and efforts Filipino Martial Arts is now a Martial Arts of the Worlds. In regards of Ernesto he is Grandmaster on his own rights, he follow the footstep of his older brother, many challenges that he faces, and crawl to the top of censorship of his brother and Modern Arnis practitioner. he is very good innovative Martial Artist at all times. He founded ARJUKEN, KOMBATAN, MODERN MANO-MANO, ETC, Published numerous book in Balisong, Arnis and mano-mano. No matter what this brother go through and whom their instructor are, they did a Job well done teaching them the Arts of Arnis. Okay, I hope is good enought o give a little intro of the brothers early training. >>hile I'm certainly not qualified to answer this question, I do have one question myself to you or anyone else in this mailing group. Where exactly >>does Remy's older brother Ernesto fit into the picture? Gumagalang ng Lubos/ with respect, Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Laguna Arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research Center USA ------------------------------ From: "Ernest Westbrook" Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 18:36:27 -0000 Subject: eskrima: Re: Modern Arnis Update Reply >From: "tim hartman" >Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 18:20:21 >Subject: eskrima: Modern Arnis Update Reply > >Greeting Digest Members, >I would like to address the questions that Lamont Norshadow had for >the >WMAA, before I do this I would like to say that I do not feel >that this >forum should be used to air dirty laundry and if anyone has >question after >my statement it would probably be best to contact me >personally at >wmarnis@wmarnis.com Hello Mr. Hartman, I do believe that the above statement is a bit of an overreaction on your part. As I read the questions from Norshadow, they were reasonable and with any intended malice, unles you know something that others are unaware of at this juncture. Besides, it was your assistant who posted on this forum, therefore, the questions could reasonably be asked and answered here, with possible clarifications going off line if necessary. >I would like to start out by saying that I was there when GM Presas >was >taken to the hospital in Germany. I was the ONLY American over at that >time. >While in the hospital GM Presas offered to promote me to head of the > >system. >I told him that there was no need seeing that I was his top active >ranked >(not cross ranked student) and there was no need to do that >because he >would be out of the hospital soon doing his seminars. I >knew that this was >not the case but my only concern was his health, >not grabbing for rank. I >left for home on monday and the rest of the >American showed up a couple >days after I left. What happened after >that I can't tell you. Now that all makes sense to me. Just that little bit fills in a very large hole in the sequence of events that I was able to read from a source, "allegedly in the know." Thanks for your input. So far there is 'no dirty linen'. Thanks for that as well. >My actions are to insure the survival of the art. As far as the Prof. >blessings go, two IMAF black belt members have visited the Prof in >Canada >and this very topic was brought up. Prof told them that Tim >has my >blessing. Again, this information is generally availible and known. This post adds an element to the posting of your notice by your assistant, that was missing. It is helpful in understanding the probable relationship between the IMAF and WMAA. This allows some people to make an more informed choice about going to seminars and or camps given by your or the other people. I'm not taking sides or making any recommendations, I just want to have more information and I thank Norshadow for asking the questions and you for answering in a competent and professional manner. We have our differences on the 'datu' usage, however, I have always been very curious as to how the top ranked student/instructor was passed over for the interim or co-grandmastership. Now at least, I have some information that I can put against other bits and pieces, so that a better understanding emerges. Of course, your reference to 'insuring the survival of Modern Arnis' has some strong implications, but let's not go there, right now. >Like the different JKD groups it is not about who is THE BEST, but >rather >who is the best for you. We at the WMAA are only offering a >choice. >Hopefully this will help clear up some of the confusion. Very well put, thanks for the reply. Arch Bishop EBrook, 2nd Chief Instructor - Surge Eskrima USA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 13:04:21 PDT Subject: eskrima: silat - kuntao Forwarded message: Selamat Hormat All: This anouncement we will have a Mini Camp Ring Were: California - VDT Academy - (562) 920-0472 Dates: July 28th and 29th. This is a Camp - Training - not like any other seminar. Early training. For the hardy Martial Artist. This to learn: Phase 1&2 of Silat Serak - Pak Victor de Thouars Phase 1&2 of Sangat Serak - Pak Willem de Thouars Registration 7am Bring your own lunch Times: From 7:30am till 6:00 pm - 1/2 hour lunch at 12 noon. A full 10 hours per day of training Cost: $140.00 for two days - pre-register before June At the day of the Camp at the door $200.00 - No exceptions Improve your strength in learning and sharpen your skills See you all here Pak Victor de Thouars International Silat Federation ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #233 **************************************** To unsubscribe from the eskrima-digest send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and the Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.