From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #264 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Mon, 11 June 2001 Vol 08 : Num 264 In this issue: eskrima: Precision with English eskrima: Challenges and succession eskrima: Diagnosing Cause of Pain eskrima: Tournament Rules eskrima: New egroup eskrima: News Report eskrima: Re: Datu Speaks... Renegade Datu Re: eskrima: Re: Datu Speaks... Renegade Datu ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1300 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000), Founder of the Inayan System of Eskrima. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima-Digest at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Marc Denny" Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 13:59:37 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Precision with English Woof Rock: > This is how it started... > > The Rock rote: > > "Remy says I fight like Ted and Ted says I fight like Remy I take them both > as compliments. And a good way to find out if Remy knows what he is doing is > to play, train, or fight with me, I am always available..." > > To which Guro Baet said, essentially,,, Ok, sounds like fun. > > Ray "Gasoline-man" Terry You shoulda payed more attenshun wen I tryed to hep youse wid yor precishun in Inglish. Crafty ------------------------------ From: "Jay de Leon" Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 16:31:36 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Challenges and succession It just struck me that the current threads have proven two outdated, anachronistic concepts : (1) challenges - Like most of you, I would have paid mucho dinero to watch a true arnis challenge match between two skilled worthy protagonists (Gat Puno Abon vs. ?) By my definition, necessary elements to such a challenge match would include bad blood or at least some animosity of some sort between the protagonists, a bone of contention such as a real or imagined slight or bragging rights or actual material prize, the real possibility of injury or even death, and the absence of rules (well, maybe "no quarter asked, no quarter given," just like Rob Roy vs. Archie in "Rob Roy" with Liam Neesen.) Let's face it. Such an event will never take place here in the States. So please, do not get me excited again by issuing any more "challenges." As an aside, the closest to a "challenge" I have witnessed in a martial arts setting was in my shorin-ryu dojo in the Philippines. A black belt and a green belt were doing individual workouts. The green belt politely asked the black belt (a non-instructor) "Let's spar." The green belt packed more heft and height; the black belt had more experience. The two proceeded to spar ably and hard with no equipment, at the end of which the black belt had a bleeding split lip, and the green belt had a nose bleed. They then shook hands and on that note, ended their individual workouts. (2) successors - One of the most boring, saddest reading for me is the claims, counterclaims, and accompanying threats of litigation, challenges (there we go again), recriminations regarding style successions. If you subscribe to any of the martial arts magazines, not an edition passes whereby this issue does not rear its ugly head. From the most visible to the relatively obscure style, it seems very few styles are inure or immune from this disease, witness the organizations of Ed Parker, Ted Lucaylucay, JKD, etc., and now Remy Presas's Modern Arnis. Remy has neither passed away, completely retired from martial arts involvement, or lost his faculties, (as far as what has been made public, anyway), and his Modern Arnis children are already squabbling over the inheritance. Don't get me wrong, we should celebrate our teachers, acknowledge lineage, and promote our art or style. But the squabbling over being the true inheritor ("tagapagmana"), successor or the anointed representative of such and such a style has become as outmoded as, well, challenges. A digest member has asked--has the digest become so boring that we have resorted to challenges, baiting, puffery and airing of dirty linen to spice up the digest? I echo the sentiment. I don't think this is what Ray had in mind when he asked for more chatter. ------------------------------ From: kalkiusa@netscape.net Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 10:01:56 -0400 Subject: eskrima: Diagnosing Cause of Pain Note: A good chiropractor does not make blind diagnoses. In partnership with the rest of the world of health care providers, he/she can have a patient get imaging done by others (e.g., anything other than x-ray imaging) so as to determine whether or not the situation falls within the scope of his/her knowledge and expertise. A good chiropractor may have superior technique for managing some disc and disc-related problems, far superior to surgery which will worsen the situation, e.g., throw off the mechanics of the spine and cause more trouble somewhere down the line of time. A team of ortho/osteo/chiro can be very formidable/effective. For disc-related problems, check out Chiromanis (brainchild of the chiro who treats the Minnesota Vikings). Mitakeyu Oyasin. Be well, Mik __________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Webmail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ ------------------------------ From: "jon broster" Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 09:34:42 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Tournament Rules Hi The WEKAF rules are pretty straight forward, they were drafted by Dioni Canete (who is a lawyer) to try and avoid any grey areas and be easily applicable. Basically, the target area is anywhere above the knees ie. the bottom of the armour. Thrusts, punios, and bodily weapons (fists, butts etc) are not permitted. A bout is fought over 3 x 1minute rounds with 30 seconds between rounds. In the event of a tie an extra round if fought. The area is about 20' square. Officials are: referee, 3 corner judges (who score) and time keeper. Scoring is 10 point must (like boxing). The winner of the round gets 10 points and the loser 9, unless they take a real beating, when they get 8 or 7 (this should be rare) Points a deducted for being disarmed (1 point) or disobeying the referee. After 3 penalty points have been awarded against a fighter the fight is over. Points are awarded to the fighter who lands more blows, so there is no direct benefit from defending yourself, other than that your opponent lands fewer blows Hope this is of help Mabuhay Jon http://www.geocities.com/jonbroster ------------------------------ From: "jon broster" Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 09:37:06 -0700 Subject: eskrima: New egroup Hi I just set a new egroup; I guess that there are a lot of ED members who should consider joining, so we can watch the sparks fly ;-) Find it at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ImBigAndToughAndIlLoveFighting Jon http://www.geocities.com/jonbroster ------------------------------ From: "Marc Denny" Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 11:20:03 -0700 Subject: eskrima: News Report Greetings: Any comments from those more informed about these matters than the media welcome. Crafty - ----------------------------------------------------------- By staff and wire reports ISABELA, Philippines -- Philippine Muslim gunmen have called off a threat to behead three U.S. captives, but seized 15 new hostages in a village swoop. In the latest twist of a two-week-old drama, the guerrillas, who are being pursued through the Basilan jungles by troops, snatched 15 captives, mostly children, in a raid on Lantawan town in the southern Philippines. The Abu Sayyaf guerrillas had earlier threatened to execute three Americans hostages, who they grabbed on May 27 along with 17 others, from a southern beach resort. But the gunmen called the executions off after Manila backed down and responded to their demand, which was to let a Malaysian politician negotiate with the guerrillas. The Abu Sayyaf gunmen had threatened to kill the Americans at noon (0400 GMT) if Sairin Karno, a former Malaysian senator, was not allowed to negotiate with them. The Americans -- Gracia and Martin Burnham, both 41 and from Wichita, Kansas -- have been working in the Philippines since 1986 as missionaries. Also taken captive was Guillermo Sobero, 40, a tourist from Corona, California. But minutes before noon, the government announced it was accepting the group's demand. Sairin helped negotiate the release last year of several Malaysians seized by the Abu Sayyaf when they snatched 21 hostages from a tourist resort in Malaysia and brought them to Jolo island in the southern Philippines. All of those hostages, except for a Filipino, have been freed, mostly after payment of ransoms reportedly amounting to $20 million. Troop pursuit The military have had little contact with the kidnappers in recent days President Gloria Macapagal Arroyo had previously rejected the use of any non-Filipino negotiator in what she said was an internal Philippine problem. But while the government has yielded to this demand, Manila has stressed military operations against the kidnappers would continue. It also said it was sticking to its no-ransom policy. Arroyo has ordered thousands of troops to hunt down the 100-member kidnap gang and rescue their hostages in the jungles of Basilan. The Abu Sayyaf is one of two groups fighting for a Muslim homeland in the south of the mainly Catholic country but appears to pursue kidnap as its main business. The government says its members are mere bandits. Muslims are a minority in the mostly Roman Catholic Philippines but are a majority in the southern islands that the Abu Sayyaf uses as a base. The Associated Press & Reuters contributed to this report. ------------------------------ From: "Ernest Westbrook" Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 18:31:09 -0000 Subject: eskrima: Re: Datu Speaks... Renegade Datu >wnyima@hotmail.com, has written the following: >Subject: eskrima: Datu speaks about challenge >Greetings, >I would like to make some comments about the ROCK and this challenge. I >feel that I can talk about it because I know Rocky, I do Modern Arnis and >Balintawak. Why are you joining this thread at this late date? It is winding down and all of the principals have ceased posting! You really are not adding anything new to the discussion. >1. Guro Abon mentioned that there was another challenge made to GM >Taboada >by Rocky and afterward Rocky backed out, this is incorrect. >It was because >of an article that was written about Taboada, at the >end of it there was a >by line about a Ted Buot who teaches his own >version of Balintawak. This >is not the case, the only man who was >allowed to teach at Anciong's club >and eventually inherited the art >was GM Ted Buot! Rocky was talking to the >writer of the article >telling him that it was in fact Taboada who taught >his own version of the art and not the real deal. This lead into a letter >to >Rocky that GM Buot read and told him that it was a challenge! After >some >discussion between the two parties the topic was dropped. I see the word "challenge" in your version of this matter. It would appear that gist of what Gat Puno Baet reported has merit and the "challege" was defused (dropped) in some manner. Maybe you should discuss this with all of the parties involved before posting just one side of the matter! >2. Ken Jo made some sarcastic about Rocky and Balitawak. If you want >to >call him a coward than do it, let's not drag the teachers or arts >into >this mess. I can certinly agree on this point. The discuion was between GP Baet and the "mere guro" Rocky, the founder and chief instructor of the Cuantada de Mano System. >3. I don't know how this started becuase I was teaching in europe and I did >not get all my mail while I was there. If you made an open >challenge >Rocky, then it's your fault. If Guro Abon was reading too >much into the >post then maybe it's not Rocky's fault. No matter what >is said not it is >not going to change anyones opinoin, so can we now >drop the whole thing >and talk about something else or is this digest >that boring? Boy, oh boy, you are really good at suggesting what the ED subscribers should be discussing and posting. Actually, I feel that you are mixing aples and snowballs! You really wanted us to know where you have holding seminars. You also used your posts to take some shots at the new IMAF leadership, Jeff Delaney, Randi Schea, and the rest of the new 'masters of tapi-tapi': >Some of the people who attended were Modern Arnis people who attended some >of the IMAF events recently. I asked if my name came up and I was told yes. >I was informed that no one said anything bad about my ability. This makes >sense seeing that the >Tapi-Tapi Masters are my juniors in rank, years and >ability. Quite honestly, Mr. Hartman, I can concede that you have a point that is worth considering. After all you were the highest ranked person in the IMAF and you held that desirable title, yet these other people were promoted to elevated positions above you. In my opinion, you have just issued a very thinly veiled challenge to ALL of those people, considering that they were your "...juniors in rank, years and ability." BTW are any of those folks subscribers to this forum? >I did not want to have to lower myself to this level, but I warned >them >that they should not start trouble with me. But this is not the first time >I feel that mud has been slung at me Why don't you simply name a time and place this fall where you and Jeff Delaney can meet. The you could demonstrate in a public forum that you are the better teacher, the more knowledable Modern Arnis student and the more skilled practicioner of the Remy Presas method of Modern Arnis - I am sure that you can perform at least a passable version of tapi-tapi! Does Jeff Delaney, have any other skills in the IMAF System, aside from being a master of tapi-tapi? >I was in Germany with Remy when he was taken to the hospital. I was >the >only American there. At that time Remy offered to promote me to >his number >1. I told him that there was no need seeing that I already >was and that >his health was more important to me than grabbing rank. >After I left for >the U.S., some of the soon to be Tapi-Tapi masters >showed up. About a >month later I saw the "News Release" on the Jeff >Delaney website (I mean >IMAF site that Jeff Mr.. Fifth degree self >promoted Grandmaster who has >not been able to produce 1 black belt >during the 6-8 years he has been >doing the art) announces the >steering board. They consisted of a group >people who were >mostly 3rd & 4th degree black belts several months before when I >TESTED >(as opposed to a deathbed promotion) for my 6th! Let state this very clearly for all of your supporters to read: I agree that you did the RIGHT THING by not accepting a leadership promotion under the circumstances of Professor Presas' medical situation!!! I applaud you for your honorable stance. There are no if, ands or buts involved in my statement. Now for the other matter. Once again, you have issued a challenge to the new IMAF leadership in general and Jeff Delaney in particular! Are you going to stand up and honor that challenge if it is accepted? As I see the challege, you and Delaney, should each take the floor at a seminar and demonstrate your relative abilities to teach the art. You got "stroked" from behind by the IMAF leadership and now you have called them out, to face you. The real question is will they respond and accept your challege? >If standing up for what I believe is right, and trying to ensure >that Grandmaster Presas' art continues, then, yes, I am a renegade. >But >my loyalty is to Remy Presas, first and foremost, as many of his >black >belts are. On the other hand, I must note that I have not seen any endorsement for you or your new organiization by your friend and master instructor Professor Presas. He seems to be solidly behind the new IMAF leaders. How could these people take over the leadership of the IMAF without the complicity and approval of Professoor Presas? Which leads me to to ask, 'could be a message have been sent, but you have failed to receive it'? These are just some of my thoughts while trying to understand why you would bring up this "datu" thing when, in the past, you have wanted the subject to die? Oh well, I guess what really matters is whether on not it is your ox being gored or it's your title being questioned, that rules the day. Arch Bishop EBrook 2nd Chief Teacher - Surge Eskrima USA THE Wicked Warlock of the West _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 12:41:03 PDT Subject: Re: eskrima: Re: Datu Speaks... Renegade Datu So what is it between you two, the Wicked Warlock and the Renegade Datu? Seems like Wicked likes to hammer the Renegade. Is there some history or bad blood between you two??? Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #264 **************************************** To unsubscribe from the eskrima-digest send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and the Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.