From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #287 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Mon, 25 June 2001 Vol 08 : Num 287 In this issue: eskrima: Re:Rizal- Wiley eskrima: More War & Hierarchy eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #286 eskrima: Mime-Version: 1.0 eskrima: RE: Open Hand Techniques eskrima: belly-buttons eskrima: FMA Empty Hand Training eskrima: list slow ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1300 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000), Founder of the Inayan System of Eskrima. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima-Digest at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jivita@aol.com Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 17:32:22 EDT Subject: eskrima: Re:Rizal- Wiley <> LOL. My only objection is that it is always said as if it defines the man or perhaps that the person doesn't know anything more about him. It's a programmed response. Like saying George Washington is the "Father of our country" but having no context or understanding of what that means. For example, I'm a fly fisher, if I mentioned Gary Lafontaine to you and said he's the "Caddis guy". You'd probably stand there scratching your head. (Your probably doing that now.) The phrase "The national hero of the Philippines" is a programmed response, in my experience. It left me bewildered at first, then ammused, now it's just a pet peeve but something I still laugh at. The author of the Rizal article did a little better in that he says that Rizal is "one of the national heroes of the Philippines." The article was interesting in that it talks about Rizal in martial terms. I found the reading about him training in Japan and Spain interesting.I've never done much reading on Rizal (it's somewhere on my reading shelf but hasn't made it to the top yet, besides he's the national hero right, so that's all I need to know to get by ;) ). The article probably doesn't present any new information to someone who's read up on the man. By the way, I'm on article 8 and only the first few were dogs (IMHO). One last thing, I realize that the "programmed response" may simply be one of familiarity. ie It's said in such a way as it's assumed that you know who the man is. Be that as it may, it's still funny when everytime the man is mentioned (in my presense) the response is the same. Regards. Jim Lowe ------------------------------ From: "Marc Denny" Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 13:35:21 -0700 Subject: eskrima: More War & Hierarchy > From: RobRPM2222@aol.com > Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 22:07:08 EDT > Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #284 wrote: > Sounds interesting, Crafty. As far as I know, there has been only one silat > guy to enter MMA competition in the U.S., Brazil, Japan, or Russia ( big 4 ), > and no mainly FMA guys to enter it. I think this was back around UFC 8 or 9. When I judged at UFC 10, I asked Ref John McCArthy about the fight (which had been a preliminary fight) and he said the Silat man had fought well. My dentist wrote: > Crafty wrote: > << Much/most of modern western martial arts is about young males competing. > Young males are intensely interested in matters of hierarchy (breeding > prospects being closely related). >> > > Very interesting points. I would say western arts have degenerated from war > arts to competition in current form as the only way to preserve what little > is left of combative arts. This happens because people need to work at jobs > to feed themselves and the payoff for winning a competition is little more > than temporary bragging rites that usually do no help in ones ability to > aquire food. Young males tend to compete because 1) they can 2) someone > else is often feeding them (they live at home) 3) they have not aquired the > baggage of life yet where they are feeding others. Those still competing > years later are few and special. Two points here; the one concerning war and hierarchy I'll address below and thus I limit myself to noting here that I would add to reason #1 that young males compete not only because they can, but also because they are biologically impelled by testosterone to do so. I would also note that this same biological imperative indicates that even if the absence of "discrimination" that males will tend to be more motivated to rise in a business heirarchy, such as a corporation, than females. Intervention by the State (commonly known as Force) to create equal results, is at war with nature. But I digress , , , :-) At any rate, I will make good use of reasons 1, 2, and 3 all those ever increasing number of times I have to tap. :-) > < the FMA are War Arts in their essence, and BJJ/NHB/Vale Tudo is > Hierarchical. >> > > What do you think makes this so? Do you think that the reason is similar to > FMA being blade oriented is closer to "gunshot is to death" vs "armbar is > to broken arm" and the breakee can still hit you back? I think that FMA can > degenerate into a Hierarchical form in that you can change rules to limit > finality of a contest. You have proven that at Gatherings. There are very > few one shot "end of contest" due to the rattan stick and limited headgear. > I would guess that there would be more first contact "end of matches" with > hardwood sticks and no gear. But then you would have no young males left > unhurt and you would have no more competition. I dunno about this notion of us being a degeneration. When we started, the alternative was WEKAF. No digs here at WEKAF, but I think it fair to say that it is further from War than the Dog Brothers. In my way of looking at things hierarchical issues are important, and indeed provide a goodly percentage of the juice that brings many of us to martial arts-- the proverbial bully kicking sand it in the face of the Charles Atlas ads of years gone by. If one can only knife the juice head as a response because one has not "degenerated" from war skills, as a practical matter one may have no practical solution. And, in my way of looking at things, it is precisely that we maintain our connection with the War and Tribal state of mind that enables us to do the fighting that we do. It is the state of mind of warriors of the same tribe preparing each other to stand together in battle that makes the whole thing possible. If our orientation were hierarchical, we would have judges, referees, and trophies. We is not and we do not. > The same goes for silat. > Lets say you take out the bukti negara entrys of crash and bash and use say > a very kind vertical gunting entry followed with puters kinjits etc. You > would then have a kinder gentler silat that could be fit for competition. > Remember the 70's when Guro Dan/Bustillio would increase sparring at the > harbor city academy and the attendance would drop? Ah yes, the Kali Academy- a deservedly legendary time and place. I was only there at the tail end (1982-83) but I certainly remember Paul Vunak taking the old "Look to your left, and look to your right. Only one of you will be here in a month" thing to introduce our class to the beginning of sparring. It turned out to be quite true. The sparring at the Kali Academy was HARD and there were some pretty skilled people around (Freddie Gin, Jeff Imada, and many others). The surface was concrete, and the only protection was boxing gloves (12 ounces being typical) and a mouth piece. No one batted an eye when the radius in my right forearm was cleanly broken. Hell, after I finished the round and sat down (My arm hurts, I think I'll call it a night") Vunak called me a kitty. >What concepts do you > think you have to keep in the training method of arts in general to sway the > balance toward hierarchical or warlike? See two paragraphs above. > < remarkably fit, strong, flexible, skilled and TOUGH. >> > > And for war you need?....awareness, mental toughness, application of skills, > anticipation, vision, luck > What do you think about that? Certainly agreed. But perhaps what I failed to articulate clearly is that many people who go into the FMA here in America (I have no basis for an opinion in the Philippines but either Luis, Abon or someone else made a similar point) are those whose temperate does not like the gritty physicality of BJJ. This is NOT a criticism!!! For many people it makes more sense to have fun training FMA and developing skills more relevant to when the flying fickle finger of fate imposes the need for hard core self-defense action than to get thrashed by some jock wannabe cage fighter in his 20s or early 30s > Regards, > > Carlton H. Fung, D.D.S. > Redondo Beach, Ca. your kitty patient, Crafty Dog ------------------------------ From: CArena7028@aol.com Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 19:43:09 EDT Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #286 In regards to FMA hand to hand effectiveness. This account is by no means an attempt to brag but merely is an account of a real life encounter I had in Feb of 1999. I will never forget it. I am an auto/heavy equipment damage adjuster. I looked at a damaged truck for a claimant, the wife was home and showed me an estimate she recieved from a shop she preffered and I wrote it with no modifications. The next day, her husband called me at my office and wanted me to come back and discuss the estimate with him person to person. I told him that I had no trouble with that and since it was on my way to the gym, that I would not have a problem stopping by. When I got to the house, he invited me in sat me down at the table and informed me that since the drivers door was dented that I was going to have the shop completely refinish his truck! I politely explained to him that that is not the way that insurance indemnity works and was told flately that I had better agree - or else! I again told him that it was not possbile and that even if I agreed to such nonsense that the insurance company. After firing me would deny the claim. At that point he went ballistic and started yelling, even though his wife and children were present in the same room. At that point I excused myself, told his wife that I'm sorry and headed for the door. I had walked up the drivweay and was unlocking my door when he came charging out of the house and running up the driveway charged me while throwing a HARD swinging right. I ducked undernieth (Palis-Palis) and even though a hard left hook to his exposed ribcage would have stopped him cold I merely pushed him hard, lifting him off the ground and into his hedgerow. At this time, his wife and daughter were running out of the house screaming. I was yelling at him to leave me alone and he charged me again. This time he stopped just short into a boxers stance and threw a hard straight right. I zoned left, pac sau's with my left, tan sau'd to trap with my right and found myself in a perfect position to merely palm strike his chin with my right hand. He was wide open. While all of this was going on, I never stopped to think of how to fight him but rather that If I hurt this idiot, I could possibly loose a job that I have worked very hard for. So, instead, I lightly palm struck him with my right and put a neck lock on him and then twisted his head back as if to throw him hard to the ground on his back, but insteaad, locked him against me and while my right fingers had him held by the chin with my palm covering his face, I just pressured his nose and held his mouth shut to seal his breath. He stared struggling and I would just step back a bit now and then to keep him off balance. While this was going on a neighbor, after hearing the commotion, came out and I yelled to him (and his wife again) that this guy was attacking me and that if he did it again I was going to sue him and take every thing he owns. At the same time his wife was pleading with him to stop and his daugher was crying. This was not a good scene! After a minute, at the most, he started going limp. and I released him, he dropped to the ground. I felt that exiting at this time was prudent because I did not need this guy to run into the house and get a gun. I again told everyone to leave me alone, got in my car and drove off. I then drove about i mile and pulled off the road as I was feeling my self go thru a monster adrenal dump and litterely could not drive. I have never heard a word since. I feel that if I hurt this guy, or even stuck around and called the police I could have been made out to be the bad guy. After all, what attorney would'nt dream of but to defend a poor defensless home owner from an evil insurance company representative. Also, I had a Spderco Endura on my through all of this & I did'nt really need to be found with that on me. So leaving the scene was prudent in this case. The bottom line to this tale is that My instructor starts most of his classes with stickwork drills, then breaks down what these drills do without the sticks, then switches to maybe as staff,blade, Most classes end with hand to hand work relating to the same stick technique. I have done this with him for over 6 years. I am not even near the skill level of his top students, am one of the oldest. (55 yrs old. I learn slower than the my classmates but I practice consistantly. FMA teaches flow in a way that is most effective, the drills sharpen your reflexes and turn a lot of your fighting skills into reflex. Yes, we do a lot of light sparring and work on using the angling, trapping and locking techniques into our normal striking lines. I personsally feel that FMA, here in the USA works differently that in the Phillipines. We do not carry sticks or staffs or machetes around in the open and we have been inbred (hollywood) to think that only the bad guy has the knife. Thus although ! training with these weapons are VERY important in developing you personal attributes, the hand to hand FMA arts are effective enough for this student. Also, we are not out in the country, in the dirt and the jungle. We live in a concrete world. everything is hard, so those are enviromental weapons as well that are alway with us and the trapping, locking skills that we learn from many of the FMA masters awwow us to take our opponent to the concrete, over the chair, into the car fender as well. Chris ------------------------------ From: Luis Pellicer III Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 09:28:28 +0800 Subject: eskrima: Mime-Version: 1.0 >From: "Roland Isla" >Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 11:23:09 -0400 >Subject: eskrima: Re: Luis Pellicer III - FMA empty hands effectiveness >>There were so many improvised weapons confiscated, not just the >usual shiv, but also blow guns, darts, and crossbows. Also the fights are >hardly ever one-on-one. With the "barcada" (very close friendship exclusive >to a particular social group - kind of like a gang, but without the >conotation of criminality or violence) culture of Filipinos, you wouldn't a >one-on-one fight but rather groups of friends joining in to either attack of >defend one person or another group. Yup, you fight a Pinoy and you've got lots of "instant" enemies. Everybody who is a friend or relative, then thier friends and relatives etc etc. Gets messy. >Another reason why I think NHB fighting never took off in the Philippines is >because of the cost involved with no foreseeable winfall in the end. True, the only two gyms I know of are targeting the A & B classes. They have a brazillian here, who wasn't about to fly around the world to relocate for peanuts!I remember when Miles (who runs one of them) was trying to get a vale tudo tournament going at the Cuneta Astrodome, all the students and thier friends couldn't fill a corner and the event was scrapped. The masa couldn't afford the tickets and sponsors were more interested in other sports. > So I am aware that with this little project of mine to create a >kali-silat NHB fighter that I am playing with a handicap (war techniques >eliminated by the rules of a hierarchical context) but I have an idea or >three that I fantasize may have some merit :-) And if the results with this >one individual do not turn out well, well its just one individual and the >search for truth continues. > >Crafty Dog On the other hand, if your fighter reverts to the purpose the style was intended, (while in the ring) imagine what a sight that would be and what stir you would create. (Oops sorry, let me help you with your eyeball,sir) I forget the exact thoughts, but didn't Bruce Lee mention something about the "Arts of War" changing to the "Arts of Sport" and having its original intent change? (or something like that) > Its is very hard only to >alter techniques of FMA for sport Tournaments, becaused we used to the dirty >stuff not clean cut straight linear attacks, that the other martial arts is >used to. I guarantee you we can out play any Karate, Tae Kwondo, Judo, >Jujitsu, to their preffered game, if they let us used our techniques, no >rules type of thing. I remember my instructors told me fighting is cheating >to win, if you cant cheat, and out think your opponents you are the one going >down. >>Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet >Laguna Arnis Federation International >US Harimaw Buno FEderation >Hilot Research Center USA Agreed, though I'd like to change the word "cheating" to something else. Makes all of us filipino stylists on the list seem sneaky. Maybe we can think of something that doesn't sound too JKDish. ------------------------------ From: "Chaplain Brian Henderson" Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 19:13:51 -0700 Subject: eskrima: RE: Open Hand Techniques "johnaleen" wtote: Dear Gat Puno Abon. Why do you think that is? I.E. why" Most FMA teachers dont teach the empty hand right away?, you say its because they have to feel your worth it? What dose that mean? and if that is the real attatude is it possable its one of the reasons it took the FMA Historicaly so long to come out of hiding? Not that I am answering for Gat Puno Abon, but I would like to add my input to what I am sure will be his own professional answer. I have found during my time as an instructor in Escrima, that if I introduce empty hands instruction too early, many students are reluctant to continue their drills with the bolo and baston. I believe this reluctance is due in part to their mindset that they are more likely to get involved in an altercation at a time when no weapon will be available or even necessary. However, I remind them that the meat and potatoes of their art is found in mastering the hand, body, leg, and foot movements that can only be discovered through the practice of training methods such as sinawali and counter for counter drills. I also stress the fact that drilling with a weapon is an essential element in developing "flow". Without flow you have no way of developing the spontaneity and creativity, which is a must if one is going to call him/herself a "martial artist". I am also of the mindset that with out flow a student can not come to a proper understanding of the open hand applications present within the FMA. God Bless! :) Sifu Brian T. Henderson Chaplain/Head Instructor Christian Martial Arts Ministry mailto:chapbrian@home.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 20:08:55 PDT Subject: eskrima: belly-buttons Belly-buttons, yes, everyone has one, but mine is especially sensitive. Now before you think I'm bragging or a little/lot kinky, there is a good reason for my sensitive belly-button. In the last 8 or so years I've undergone two laproscopic (sp?) surgical procedures that went through the belly-button. At this point even the slightest contact to the belly-button area is rather uncomfortable. A light finger tap there is VERY noticeable, so you can imagine what a punch or kick to that area is like or a knee or elbow with body weight behind it during matwork. Anyone else have this 'interesting' experience? Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 23:05:19 EDT Subject: eskrima: FMA Empty Hand Training Ms. J, Okay I will try to answer this very carefully.. >> Dear Gat Puno Abon. Why do you think that is? I.E. why" Most FMA teachers dont teach the empty hand right away?, you say its because they have to feel your worth it? What dose that mean? and if that is the real attatude is it possable its one of the reasons it took the FMA Historicaly so long to >>come out of hiding? Well, in FMA most of the old Teacher do not teach the hidden Hand application of the stick motion, until you become familiar to the weapon movements. No.1. The Original intentions of the FMA olds Guro's is to teach the hardest parts of combat, which is weaponry. Most FMA Guro want the practitioner to become familiar to physic of weapons, train them physically and mentally. Once the practitioner familiarized the weapons movements, from A-Z and then usually they will test your skill level. No.2. Also the FMA Guro's tested your individuality as a person, student, Citezen, and a fighter. If you are a trustworthy, honest, intelectectual person, sincere then you will earned there trust, then they will feel you are worth for the advance lefvel of training, the empty hands. No.3. They will teach you the empty hand if you have a good strong "Padrino" (Godfather) that backing you up to your instructors. This is common in the Philippines and even US. Or if you have big money to pay him, then it might feel that worth to teach you the empty hand for Money( I am not pointing any system here okay, I think some of us is guilty of this part too.) This is one of the reason of misleading the idea that FMA is a weapon oriented arts only, becaused some of us here never see it, how is done in the hand application, or even they show you the empty hand applications, seem like totoally changes the movements from original stick patterns. Very rare I saw FMA master here in the US that show techniques in the stick, then claimed he will translated to the hand movement, when he show the empty hand part is not even similar to the movements of the stick movements. >>I asked some questions about some of these issues some time ago here on ed and I have asked the same questions on the road from time to time of my teachers and peers, basically this same question that is on ed now " when were others introduced into empty hand applications and drills, and how effective do they believed there empty hand skills were to there art, and last when did they start teaching the empty hand applacations and drills into there classes, because I had seen over the years that it varied greatly >>and had wondered why to myself.. Again, I tell you this, I am 100% sure FMA is a very effective fighting arts in all range, from weapon thru empty hand combat. To my class, I teach the Emty hand side by side with a weapon, to the few choosen students only, the rest stick first, then they have to show there dedication before they will move to the empty hand. >>Effectiveness and bringing a Balance for today's society and practicality. seemed much more important to me when it came time to teaching, that practicality in this day and age would be something that should be marketed and promoted in the art as it was so core and important to the art, so empty hand techs were introduced on the first class in lecture, Then we teach each week in the following manor, breaking down each lesson based on >>stick-sword-knife-empty hand, I agree with you, without a doubt. That is good pattern of teaching, but we aslo have to realized that we should not to rush there training. The hardest parts is to get used to the idea of weapons. Most empty hand fighter, I face before, PANICS the minutes they see the stick or any weapon, they dont know what to do againts weapon attacker. A lot of them, taught the exagerated style of self defense agains weapon, if they face FMA, the pattern of attack is not just an overhead strike, then they realized that not easy to fight someone with weapons, especially if the weapon attacker is FMA practitioner. >>We tend to teach a technique in three levels on the same day. Instead of teaching 12 strikes and releases at once with just the stick, the techs are broken down into smaller groups working the tech in stages first stick then knife then empty handed application, sometimes we don't always do the knife >>work, depends If I have some of the younger boys in the class that day. >>part of this is based on the fact that most of the students we teach came to us needing practicality, over half of them already are belted fully and ranked in other arts, if not they came from other arts, I think I only have 2 students in the class that had no experience in other arts but, they spent a few months doing privets with me on the beach before the class got started for level 1 FMA, It's the bases of how I promote my classes in FMA" the empty hand applications are highlighted as one of the main reasons for the >>overall practicality of FMA in today's society.. >Ms. J..'s FMA Advertising and Marketing Quote:" Each strike or move taught can be applied to open hand or weapons Application. It is all applicable. You will be able to apply everything you learn in this class, whether you have a stick, sword, knife, or nothing in your hands. With the Filipino Martial Arts, There is no wasted practice time or wasted application >>expectations." >>Disclaimer: Please note. these are just some of my thoughts on what we do and how we do it. its not be the right way for everyone but its our way.. each one of the teachers that have taught us or we have taken class under have done things differently, and this is just our expression of the art >> that was built as we evolved from learning into our teaching style. >>As Yoda-B keeps telling me" we are all still works in progress" Using my license to Learn. Ms J.. Bows deeply. Ms. J. You have a good pattern of curricullum, if that what your style of FMA teaching. In Garimot, Weapon is always the first curriculum, then Knife, then empty hand. Goodluck, and keep up the good work, seem you know what your goal is in training FMA, and that's important. Salamat, Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Laguna Arnis Federation Interantional US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research Center USA GM Baet wrote: <> >>GM, >>While I agree with you in principal in the U.S. one thing is sorely lacking in all the FMA I have trained. That is hard contact sparring. Only Guro Inosanto/Bustillio promoted heavy sparring in the 70's and has since backed off those positions for reasons of liability class size drop outs etc.. Curious advancing students doing personal research do the heavy stuff and become leaders in their class and most others play tag with sticks. I don't think true understanding comes through until you get hit hard and hit back hard. Hitting and getting hit is just an essential part of the learning curve IMHO. Of course it is best learned while you are young and heal fast vs old and healing slowly. No other Guro's I've trained under from time to time even GM Giron or GM Canete promoted to me in classes the idea of exploring your limits. Classes were always more about technique and tools. In their defense I have spent little time with them but I would think that at the core of understanding combat is to at least develop training method to simulate it. I have sparred too many people at high levels in FMA who once hit back away and their game just falls apart. Challenging that issue is one of the main things the Dog Brothers work through the adrenal unknown state. People have more of a mental problem getting hit with a stick vs hit with a boxing glove. IMHO few people can swing a stick as well as they can punch. I would rather get hit in the head with a stick from the average FMA practioneer than take a good right cross to the chin. At least FMA as taught in America counter for counter against each other. Many other arts >>in Amerca have no contact at all. So FMA even at these levels can prevail in >>tournement. >>Regards, >>Carlton H. Fung, D.D.S. >>Redondo Beach, Ca. Carlton, I totally agree to you, but we have to realized they still a lot of Filipino Martial Arts practice hard contact here in the US. Most of the system here in the US claimed that there arts is deadly that why they dont practiced sparring. Well I have a good news from those people. They can choose to live in the dark or in the shadow of their flashy moves and footworks, but if you dont try atleast to find out if you can apply the techinques, footwork, strikes, in perfect timing, speed, and power. Without this, you would never know what heat you when challenge arrises. I encourage everyone in FMA to [ractice light sparring, light padded, and full contact no padded before it to late. Again, I respect the stick that will land on my hand leaving me bruised than the stick just for display to my opponents hand. I hoep someday we see Tournaments without padded but controlled atmostspheres. Someday, Salamat, Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Sheldom, I am sorry, I am not familiar to this system, besides, I never heard of it, this the first time I heard it. tahnsk fir the info though. I will keep that to my sytem collection. Thanks you Gat Puno Abon >>.. is that he fails to mention the Lagarejos system of Sikaran which >>has been taught in the U.S. for fourty years. >>Sheldon ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 6:20:02 PDT Subject: eskrima: list slow fyi, the list will be slow (but hopefully not down) for the next few days as I'll be out of town. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #287 **************************************** To unsubscribe from the eskrima-digest send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and the Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.