From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #289 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Wed, 27 June 2001 Vol 08 : Num 289 In this issue: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #288 eskrima: FMAmag eskrima: knife testers eskrima: Sneaky Fighting eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #288 eskrima: Re: The caddis guy eskrima: When to teach hands, sparring & misc eskrima: Rizal Biography??Why he is the National Hero? eskrima: Grappling Training eskrima: Re: empty hand range eskrima: RE: Open Hand eskrima: Mime-Version: 1.0 eskrima: Re: Rizal eskrima: . ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1300 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000), Founder of the Inayan System of Eskrima. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima-Digest at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Richard Killick" Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 13:04:25 +0100 Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #288 > Again to cut the story short, we Filipino dont know each other, all we know > we are Filipino, and we fought for each otehr againdst 45-55 Mexican Navy. > That show we Filipino stick to each other in case like this. Sometimes I > still think few more incedents that I been experience for Three years working > as a Crew in the ship. We dont need to justify who are worng or right, we > just based the fact that there are Filipino and we are Filipino and they need > my help, so we help them no second taught. That the Filipino Attitude, like > when someone attack your instructors, even their not attacking you is your > responsibility to defend you Teacher, no matter what the case may be you are > there to help him out in any way even you know you are weak you just want o > show him your sincerity and didication.. > > Okay Pare salamt uli, Okay friends thanks again, > > Gat Puno Abon "GArimot" Baet > Laguna Arnis Federation International > US Harimw Buno Federation > Hilot Research Center USA Its interesting how groups become almost tribal or pack like when groups of males are in the same place. I know that Crafty Dog has some relevant theories on this kind of behaviour. Over here in the UK you see young males splitting into rival football supporters groups (tribes). When I was in the army we were very tribal, in that we considered other regiments inferior etc. Inter regiment boxing was the high light of the month. Gat Puno from a fma view point, does your system look at the issue of fighting in groups. What are your strategies for fighting with groups which out number you. Do you actually train group fighting or do you find people "slot in" with their skills, learned during individual one to one training. Do you address the problems of dealing with mutipal attackers? > I submit the proposition that on the whole > the Dog Brothers would handle themselves well in a no-gear death matches , , > , likewise War. Having stood next to Godzilla when someone pissed him off by throwing a fire cracker, I would say that's the understatement of the year. Even the innocent hid! Someone over here in the UK once told me of an occasion when he accompanied his not well known silat instructor to the local fast food place, only to find it in the mist of a John Wayne style salon fist fight. In walks the small Indonesian silat instructor and every one stopped fighting without even any threats being made. Sensed someone bad had walked in I guess. Its intresting how even some drunken people (with no training) can sense not to bother people who have killed in combat etc but who look harmless. Yet I have friends who are big and strong and people try to pick fights with them all the time. Maybe it has to do with failing the interview as animal says. Regards Richard Killick. ------------------------------ From: "Kyud" Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 06:32:59 -0700 Subject: eskrima: FMAmag Filipino Martial Art magazine has been updated with the cover of Volume 3 #1. Also the Who's who for 2000 in which MANGISURSURO Mike G. Inay is the Man of the Year for the magazine. More techniques and drills coming soon. http://www.filipinomag.com/ Also the booklet Arnis Balite "Huli Lusob" still have a few copies once sold out no more will be available. Only $6 in the U.S. and $9 outside the U.S. http://www.arnisbalite.com/ Respectfully ------------------------------ From: Pete Sampogna Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 09:31:07 -0400 Subject: eskrima: knife testers I lost my knife testers emails hows it going guys? How's the carbide edge holdimg up Peter Sampogna ------------------------------ From: kalkiusa@netscape.net Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 09:32:03 -0400 Subject: eskrima: Sneaky Fighting Cheating, sneaky ... how about CUNNING? I like to think of the focussed cleverness that we might be able to express in combatives as intelligent, cunning behavior. Cunning = MENTALLY SHARP/SMART, CLEVER, INSIGHTFUL, OPPORTUNISTIC, etc. Sounds sneaky, eh? Mitakeyu Oyasin. Be well, Mik __________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Webmail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ ------------------------------ From: GHSoto@aol.com Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 13:48:20 EDT Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #288 greetings, I had a suggestion in the name of balance. I believe and feel that the martial arts in general, and FMA in particular, have applications beyond kicking butt and who has the biggest "dick" in town. As I age I personally feel the need to move beyond strictly ass kicking to other possibilities with the arts. I want to apply the "arts" in various contexts. In the digest I feel the overwhelming thrust is to "take care of business" which is the bottom line, my question is: Is there room and interest for other applications? For example, does Sinawalis, with the cross over patterns, have the potential to affect children, or adults for that matter, with learning disorders? Specifically dyslexia? Can learning to block a strike be applied to battered women for developing a sense of borders and the ability to say "NO?" So I guess my question is there an interest and a place here for discussion of topics that range beyond challenges, kicking ass, and who's style is the best? Is there an interest in topics that promote peace? (Please I understand that learning martial arts promote peace if taught and practiced in a "conscious" way. That is not what I am talking about.) I feel that all of us want for ourselves, families and friends, and ultimately, all mankind to be happy and live in a non violent environment. So beyond the obvious are there practitioners who are applying the work in ways that may not be so obvious. Thanks and peace GHSoto ------------------------------ From: Jivita@aol.com Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 15:00:32 EDT Subject: eskrima: Re: The caddis guy <> LOL. Gary and Joe Humphreys top my list. Swisher cracks me up. Talk about body english.... <> Ah yes, the nympher’s Bible, the deep man’s Koran. I lived by it’s nymphing precepts for years but have recently ( last 4 years or so) adopted the precepts of Joe Humphreys. Ever see his “Casting approach to dry fly fishing in tight brush” or nypmph fishing video? Excellent stuff. Especially for our small and medium sized streams like the Upper Sac. <> Sure anytime. Jim. ------------------------------ From: "BILL MCGRATH" Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 15:57:27 -0400 Subject: eskrima: When to teach hands, sparring & misc Tuhon Gaje told us that he learned Pekiti from his grandfather one weapon at a time. Single stick A to Z, then all of double A to Z, then all the epada y daga, then knife, then hands. When he was teaching in the States, most of his students where adults with prior martial arts experience. His teaching structure with adults was closer to giving all the "A" techniques on all the weapons, then all the "B" techniques and so on. I think each structure made since for the student being taught. Part of the logic behind the teaching is to concentrate on primary weapons first and foremost, whether a samurai concentrating on his katana or a modern soldier on his rifle, how much time should an armed warrior spend on empty hand techniques? All armies seem to teach some empty hand, but it seems to fall into the category of "If you lose your weapon, here are a few things you can do." Wrestling seems to be present in every culture throughout history, but even in ancient times seemed the most sport oriented of the combat skills. So one reason I think empty hands were traditionally taught last in many FMAs was it was the last thing you wanted to do against an armed opponent (and the assumption, based on experience, was that your opponent would be armed). The other reason for teaching weapons first is that it helps accelerate the development of several attributes namely speed, timing and body mechanics. When you swing a weapon such as a stick or sword you are both using and being effected by leverage. You use the length of the weapon to increase the arc of your swing which gives the tip of your weapon much more speed than your hand would have alone. When moving against a similarly armed training partner, you end up working in a much faster environment than an empty hand situation and acquire good timing earlier. Leverage also works upon you. Very early on in weapon work, you realize, or are taught directly, that many of the movements must start not with the weapon arm, but with the hips or legs and travel up the body for maximum speed and power. This travel of force through the body must be done with each joint adding it's effort sequentially to the force. This gives a plyometric effect at each joint which is compounded as the force moves to the next joint which greatly adds to the overall force. Getting your whole body plyometrically behind a strike sometimes takes years for someone training in only empty hands to understand, but seems to be almost instinctual for someone to do when training with a weapon. Give someone a stick who has had only empty hand training and have them swing it and often make one of two mistakes. They either make it look like they are imitating a revolving door, with their lower and upper bodies moving rigidly together as a unit, or they only move their weapon arm during the strike. Take someone who has first trained in weapons and then begin to train them in empty hands and the sequential plyometric body mechanics they already know easily carries over into their new training. The old Okanowain Karateka had a saying: "Soft first then hard is easier than hard first then soft". By which they meant that it is easier to learn a soft style first then train in a hard style than the reverse. I have trained a great number of people from a great number of backgrounds and have found that this rule applies with almost universal consistency in the weapons/empty hand transition. It is an easier transition from weapons to empty hand than from empty hand to weapons. Having said that, I have seen no detriment in training empty hands at the same time as weapons so long as the empty hand techniques reinforce the body mechanics of the weapon movements. Re: full contact in the 70's. Back in the 70's when I was in my teens, I believed that we Pekiti-Tirsia guys were the "only" ones doing full contact FMA weapons sparring in the U.S. But then, ten years before that, I believed that my father was the strongest man and my mom the prettiest woman in the whole world. I guess it depends on your point of view and how far you can see from that point. A student sent me the url for a site on the structure of the ancient Roman army. Check it out, it's pretty interesting. http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Oracle/6622/index.html#table-contents If you recall, I had to reschedule my Knoxville, TN seminar originally set for this past weekend after my father-in-law's doctor called the family last Wednesday and told them to come to the hospital because he didn't have much time left. Well the doctor's prediction turned out to be accurate. My father-in-law passed away early Thursday morning. I doubt there are any smokers on this list, but perhaps you can pass this on to those you know who do. My father in law died after many years of smoking a pack a day. He spent the last four months of his life confined to a hospital bed 24 hours a day because of inoperable lung cancer which had spread to his brain. His family watched him waste away literally to skin and bones. While his motor skill were affected by the legions on his brain, his cognitive functions were not, so he was aware of what was happening to him up until the last two days. Regards, Tuhon Bill McGrath Visit the PTI web site at: http://www.pekiti-tirsia.com/index.html ------------------------------ From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 16:21:12 EDT Subject: eskrima: Rizal Biography??Why he is the National Hero? Jay, Let me put a little piece of my cake in this subject. << >> This brings up the interesting question, when Rizal was proclaimed (by legislative fiat?) as the national hero of the Philippines, who else were considered? Were there more warrior heroes (Andres Bonifacio, Gen. Emilio Aguinaldo, Diego Silang, Lapu-lapu, etc.) than men of letters (Rizal, Apolinario Mabini, Antonio Lopez Jaena, Datu Sumakwel, etc.)? Why did Rizal >> win out? This argument reached the moment the two main Man are voted to be the National Hero. Then the legislative reach the verdic, decision are made Dr. Jose P. Rizal favor over Supremo Andress Bonifacio. Reason, Rizal is is trying to win the fight for Diplomatic way. He was the choice of the Filipino to be the Filipino Role model, Genius, Linguistic(he speak and write English, Spanish, French, German, Japanese, Chinese and various dialect in Filipino) passionate Martial Artistis (Exceptable Fencer and Arnisadores particularly Doce Pares of Laguna), He study in Madrid to be a Doctor (Eye Specialist in particular study so he can operate his mother eyes at that time is practically blind caused of Catarats), He is a Poet, Writer, Sculptor, Paitner, Carpenter, Engineer, Mathematician and more. He is a perfect role model for the young generation, no matter where they look at it, he is perfect example of a great man. Andress Bonifacio is poor drop out, self study student, , His vision is to organized revolution and win the battle with armed. He has a vision of Suversion, sedition, and guilty of recruiting minor to fight against Spanish Soldier. Great Supremo or head of the Katipunan. To me Gat Andress Bonifacio is a Hero from all poor people of Filipino Luzon. He proclaime the battle to fight after he heard that the Spanish authority shot to death Gat Jose Rizal in Luneta Park at that time was called Bagumbayan (New Town). >>(2) You wrote "The article was interesting in that it talks about Rizal in martial terms. I found the reading about him training in Japan and Spain >>interesting." He study Fencing in Spain, and the art of Samurai in Japan. >>It is a well-known fact that Rizal was an excellent fencer, presumably training extensively in European fencing during his many years of exile in >>Europe. But what did he train in in Japan? Very short time in Japan like I told you he learned the basic art of Samurai. He learned Arnis from his older Brother Paciano Rizal at that time is a member of the Laguna Doce Pares Group in Banahaw Moutain, on mid 1800's. He also teach Arnis in Dapitan to over 25 kids on his later year before he was shot to death in Luneta. Jay de Leon, I hope I give you enough info, to your question. I wrote a thesis on 1978, back in High School, because they re-calling all of the History or Facts on this Topic, I enter the Competition and I place 4th over 200 entrees in University of the Philippines in Los Banos, Laguna. About the life and what really happen to Gat Jose Rizal during his stay in Cuba, Dapitan, China, Europe, and his last day in Port Bonifacio at that time, was called Cuta de Entra Moros. Salamat, Thanks, Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Laguna Arnis Federation Interantional US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research Center USA ------------------------------ From: Dobe Snyder Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 15:09:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eskrima: Grappling Training Anybody aware of a location to train in grappling or MMA in central PA, specifically the Harrisburg area? I would like to add this element to my stick training. Thanks. Brian __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: "Pentjakker" Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 18:50:56 -0400 Subject: eskrima: Re: empty hand range > I agree with the point you are making Luis. What concerns me however, is > getting to that eyeball pluck. If one has not experienced a sound NHB type > fighter, even in firm sparring, getting through may be tougher than one > imagines. I for one am not sure I grasp what you mean (pun not intended ;)... Hard to close or bridge the gap? There seems to be a tendency to stay in the striking range or for one to shoot for the takedown taking the fight to the ground in NHB. On the ground both contestants are usually tied up close, in the guard, etc. Of course there's switching between these modes but rarely do the fighters mark time in between, i.e. in stand up close range / standing grapple unless one of them is up against the fence. Silat, for a fair percentage of the time, tends to (attempt to) make way to "close" range or corto in FMA terms. By close/corto I mean inches (being a WASP/Yankee for the most part, who grew up on a farm I found this quite disconcerning at first, it took time to get comfortable with). In the continuum, silat tends for the goal to be to put the opponent down while you remain standing or in other words highly mobile. Take away the lawan's (opponent's) mobility and retain yours, punishing/damaging all along the way of course.. Why is this? Movement is life - stagnation death. Concurs with your previous elucidations, in it is a war art, rather than sport, in that multiple opponents and weapons are assumed. I think one does not want to be rolling when weapons or multiple opponents are likely but highly mobile. One's about sport. The other about surviving. How does one divide their training time with this in mind? All depends on goals. Guntings have been brought up; The first time someone successfully does a elbow gunting to an incoming fist I bet it'll be ruled illegal here in the states anyway. Speaking of it, that's bad Jits to maim your opponent.... it's high class to "just" submit them. Philosophical difference. Somewhat of a tangent from NHB but Jujitsu to Judo went from battlefield to self protection, oriented it seems, for a single aggressor being that Japan has had a strict cultural code of conduct built on honor. SE asian MA or at least IMA/FMA ideal seems to be to survive by any means necessary (reguardless of honor) with the possibility of multiple opponents in clearly in mind.. Regards, Travis ------------------------------ From: "Chaplain Brian Henderson" Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 16:03:39 -0700 Subject: eskrima: RE: Open Hand docfung wrote: I am not sure I understand your last sentence. (I am also of the mindset that with out flow a student can not come to a proper understanding of the open hand applications present within the FMA.) A strike down a line with a stick is the same as a strike down a line with a hand. A vertical gunting with a stick is the same as with a hand. If students would just keep shortening their sticks and do their techniques I think by the time they got to a palm stick they would have figured out quite a bit by themselves. Thank you for asking me to clarify that comment. What I was implying was that to deliver a succession of strikes in a matter that flows, would require a fluidness of motion and the ability to react without much thought. In essence, a suc-suc flowing immediately to a saltic while zoning in, which is followed by Banda Y Banda footwork while delivering an abanico, all done without thought, but rather instinctively, reacting to the moment of attack, dictated by the opponents momentum. I submit that a student could learn all of these strikes, and do them effectively, and even learn to do them in succession with speed and strength, but without the ability to flow (creative mobility), if his opponent responded in a manner outside of his knowledge or expectation, he would have a break in his counter attack and leave himself open for a second fresh attack from his opponent. In essence the creative response has been taken away, and he is simply responding with memorized movements. Chaplain Brian T. Henderson mailto:chapbrian@home.com http://www.cmaministry.com/ http://www.cmaministry.com/chaplain ------------------------------ From: Luis Pellicer III Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 09:18:12 +0800 Subject: eskrima: Mime-Version: 1.0 > dont need to justify who are worng or right, we >just based the fact that there are Filipino and we are Filipino and they need >my help, so we help them no second taught. That the Filipino Attitude, >Gat Puno Abon "GArimot" Baet > Yes, I've seen two filipino enemies get together and fight against foreigners. Once the fight is over, they go for each other again! Pakikisamahan! > If one has not experienced a sound NHB type >fighter, even in firm sparring, getting through may be tougher than one >imagines. Again I would underline in the Dog Brother experience we have no >judges, no referees and no trophies, instead we have the Dog Brother >code--the better to allow us to approximate reality and usually survive with > >Woof, >Crafty Dog > > Hey Crafty, thats why you STAB those NHB guys! Seriously though, I've always said that ANYONE who trains hard to seriously hurt an opponent is a force to reckon with. Given the NHB jocks you were describing, given the time they put in thier training, I would be deluding myself into thinking that going for the throat, eyes, etc. would ensure a win. Damage potential may be higher,(eg. training to cripple rather than submission) but execution is another matter altogether. These guys are pro fighters and thier skill level is honed to an edge. But given the scenario where I have a knife hidden, and the moment I go down I KNOW twenty other kababayans are going to jump in & stab or break something over his head from behind, the guy can't afford to spend time with me on the ground. That is this reality, can't say what would go on in the States. >>our IQ and our bodies intact. I submit the proposition that on the whole >>the Dog Brothers would handle themselves well in a no-gear death matches , , >>, likewise War. I am not saying that ours is the only way, merely that I >>believe it to be an effective one. > Without a doubt, you guys have taken one on one hard-core full contact sparring to a level rarely seen. I too would say that you guys are gearing yourselves towards real combat and not the sports stuff. No matter how reality based the NHB sport may be, there are still rules that can be broken. ------------------------------ From: Jivita@aol.com Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 22:09:47 EDT Subject: eskrima: Re: Rizal <> According to the article, he studied jujitsu, read japanese, practiced sumiye (zen drawing), studied arnis, dumog, suntukan and fenced at Sala de Armas y Carbonell in Spain. Regards. ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 4:04:51 PDT Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #289 **************************************** To unsubscribe from the eskrima-digest send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. 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