From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #340 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Sun, 29 July 2001 Vol 08 : Num 340 In this issue: eskrima: Re: Leo Fong eskrima: Kuntaw and Brian.. re: eskrima: Malay eskrima: Brian Smith's kuntaw bashing eskrima: Spanish stick fighting ? eskrima: kuntao-kuntaw eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #335 eskrima: FMA teacher needed in Sacramento area eskrima: . ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1400 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000), Founder of the Inayan System of Eskrima. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima-Digest at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kaesa@aol.com Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 14:35:35 EDT Subject: eskrima: Re: Leo Fong Hello, I have met and trained with Leo Fong 4x at seminars. Usually he was concentrating on his boxing and footwork, but hasn't ever gone into any of his stickwork. I don't want to be rude and get him off of his agenda at his seminar, but I would love to see or hear about anyone that has worked out with him doing sticks. I know he trained with Remy Presas in the PI's, and also with Angel Cabales in CA. and that he credits Angel for alot of his footwork. I love his emptyhand stuff. Anyone out there seen him with a stick? Thanks Joe ------------------------------ From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 15:03:08 EDT Subject: eskrima: Kuntaw and Brian.. Brian, First of all you did a good job, to promote the arts. Its is not your fault or I am trying to make you feel like bashing you in this topic. You answer more than enough to understand how the arts, history of Kuntaw progress. I think you have the right and do what you think is right to your groups, despite of the history, history change everyday, so just keep what you doing now, teach and promote the arts that you was taught before before other things added on it.. Good luck and if you need any help dont hesitate to ask to the list, I am willing to help in way I can.. Thanks I am more than satisfied to your e-mail post. Thanks, Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Laguna Arnis federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research Center USA Original post: << Ok, Ok, tired of getting bashed here. I established the Maharlika Kuntaw Club at Northwestern Michigan College in 1982, at that time , the elders/ powers that be did not take too kindly to the idea of teaching stick fighting to the young innocent students at the college. I had to show them ( through several articles in various magazines ) that the arts were cultural and used to defend against the conquering Spanish. I don't think they would have let my art in to the college if I told them it was a very destructive art designed to maim and kill people efficiently and effectively. I did not post the excerpt from the college web page, somebody else did. All that I have done in the art is try to promote the FMA at tournaments, seminars, and in demonstrations. As far as the contradictory terms or base arts confusion, sorry- that's what I was taught. I wasn't there in the beginning, just a lowly student trying to pick up what I could with my limited Tagalog. I was "TOLD" that one of the original names for the Philippine Archipelago was the "Maharlikas" and that it denoted original, or royal, having honor. If that is wrong , the man who taught me that is a Liar. That just happens to be Grand Master Carlito A. Lanada. Over the past thirty years , the "Ancient" art of Kuntaw ( as I was taught) has gone thru some radical changes in regards to rankings, titles, forms, and techniques. I was stationed in the PI from 1970 to 1973 where I trained in Kuntaw. My charge from the Grand Master was to propagate, promote, create interest in the art of Kuntaw and other Filipino Martial arts. I think that I have done that. I don't claim to be a master, I don't claim to have all the answers, and I don't claim to be a Filipino historian. Just an avid student and mentor of the Filipino Martial arts. Seems like whenever I open my mouth I get corrected. When I made up the class description a Filipino secretary said I was wrong to use Filipino because Pilipino was the proper way. But on my certificte it says Filipino art. Go figure. Everybody else must be the definitive expert on my art. Hmm, go figure. The history of Kuntaw has changed many times since I started. >> ------------------------------ From: AnimalMac@aol.com Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 16:03:44 EDT Subject: re: eskrima: Malay From Marc Animal MacYoung << > nice try. But it seems like a Eurocentric attempt to make > the Negro African (is that pc?) look like he was capable > of no more than to be "brought" somewhere, like baggage. > The Africans were in the Philippines long before the Portuguese, > who actually lay claim to "discovering" the Philippines >> Ummm folks...before you go too far into rewriting history take a look at a book called "Guns, Germs and Steel" by J Diamond. It will go miles to keep you from replacing a "euro-centric" viewpoint with another fill-in-the-blank-centric revisionist bit of history. It gives some damn hard to argue points about what it takes to make an advanced civilization...and they aren't what you think they would be either. From that starting point you can begin to see that yes, the world wasn't created by white people, but then again it wasn't invented soley by any other "one" group. And yes there is damn good evidence that the sea trade routes were in place for thousands of years before Magellian. Chinese in South America. Romans in China, Vikings in New England, Phonecians in the Gulf of Mexico...and nobody knows how the Aborigines got there before all of those civilzations were supposed to be able to even make a boat. Just food for thought. ------------------------------ From: "Jay de Leon" Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 14:24:51 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Brian Smith's kuntaw bashing To Guro Brian "Buzz" Smith: Mr. Smith, I have a lot of empathy for you. I realize how hard it must be to carry out your master's charge and teach a style that is foreign to you, using terms in a language that is not native to you, with a historical background that is probably convoluted even to a Filipino martial arts historian. And I salute you in propagating the FMA's. And it is probably not presumptuous of me to suggest that you were not naive or unconcerned of potential problems. Filipinos historically are insular, fractious, contentious and political (as this Digest has shown?). You are probably aware of the dozens of provinces (hundreds of tribes before they became provinces), dialects even within provinces and the accompanying deep-seated distrust and festering enmities that exist even today. The Philippines has a national hero, a national language, a national government, among other things national, and yet even today debates rage as to who should be the national hero, whether Tagalog should have been the national language, and we have separatist movements actively campaigning, by armed conflict and by electoral means, to secede from the Philippine government. Nowadays, you almost have to be a statesman and a diplomat to head an FMA style. You cannot be curt and dismissive and declare "ex cathedra" that since what you say came from your Filipino grandmaster (whether it be GM Lanada, Prof. Presas, Guro Dan, whoever), then it must be gospel and anybody who disagrees is challenging their authority and knowledge. For example, the difference in spelling between "Filipino" and "Pilipino" is easy to figure. "Pilipino" is the Tagalog spelling of the word, as there is no letter "f" in the old Tagalog alphabet. (The Tagalog alphabets are a b k d e g h i l m n ng o p r s t u w y.) "Filipino" is the English spelling of the word. Nothing difficult here. You do not have to make a mystery or create controversy out of it. I have never heard of the Philippines being called "Maharlikas." It could very well be a historian actually called the Philippines that; I just didn't read that particular history book. And don't forget that the "Maharlikas" were the nobility or royalty in the ancient hierarchy. So it is also possible that a particular historian might have described the Philippines as the land of "Maharlikas." It does not make GM Lanada a liar nor does it mean I am calling him one. That is his personal reading of history. GM Carlito Lanada is featured in Wiley's book. It appears his style is not just different in spelling (Kuntaw vs. kuntao) but also in origin and influences (definitely no connection to Chinese or Indonesian kuntao). On a different post, my kabayan GP Abon is correct, as usual. "Kunsigrado" is supposedly a Tagalog corruption of the Spanish words "con segrado," meaning "with sacredness." I am Tagalog, and I wouldn't have been able to figure this out myself without reading Wiley's book. On a positive note, you personally now have an excellent chance to bring to the forefront the techniques and history of your art. In my own case, I have heard of kuntao and always thought that kuntaw was just a Filipinized spelling, I actually saw a kuntao (or was it kuntaw?) school in Dagupan, Pangasinan, Philippines in my last trip, I have read about GM Carlito Lanada but know next to nothing about its fighting techniques and concepts, as well as its development here in the States. Maybe you could educate us. And maybe the other kuntao practitioners (my good friend Jay Saguisabal and others?) can educate us on their styles. Respectfully to all kuntaw/kuntao practitioners, Jay de Leon ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 17:28:24 PDT Subject: eskrima: Spanish stick fighting ? > AJUPAL, a Juego del Palo association with a strong academic focus, is > presently undertaking research into Basque, French, Spanish, Portuguese, > Egyptian and African stick fighting styles, to determine whether these arts > may have influenced the development of modern Juego del Palo. ??? Anyone have info on Spanish stick fighting systems? Could be interesting... Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: sdrape@kbs-filipino-martial-systems.org Date: 29 Jul 2001 18:57:45 -0700 Subject: eskrima: kuntao-kuntaw > Kuntao-Kuntaw/Chuan'fa/Kwonbup/Kempo/Kenpo = Fist Law (or some say Fist Way) > > All are just different translations of the same Chinese ideogram. I wondered > just how related they all are, identical name or not. ??? "Kun" means fist and "tao" means way in the Fujian (Fukien) language of SE China. In Mandarin, the same term would be quan dao (chuan dao). The term chuan fa means nearly the same thing, with "fa" meaning method instead of way or path. The various forms of kuntao are completely unrelated. The term describes particular styles of fighting that were originally brought by Chinese travelers, then changed, adapted, integrated with local forms of martial arts. The original Chinese kung fu style might have been Shaolin, or Bagua or Hung Gar, so they all started from different points. Also, if a bagua style went to Indonesia and interacted with silat, the resulting kuntao would be much different from a bagua style that went to the Philippines and interacted with buno/sikaran/dumog etc. Hope this helps. ------------------------------ From: basil Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 08:36:36 +0600 Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #335 What training is available in the Novosibirsk(Russia)? Eugene. basil@nok.sibnet.ru ------------------------------ From: "johnaleen" Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 22:51:20 -0400 Subject: eskrima: FMA teacher needed in Sacramento area I have a friend that lives in, South Natomas, a suburb of Sacramento calif, he is interested in learning Filipino martial arts, and wanted take lessons with me, but I will not be coming back and forth to calif on a regular bases for at least 5 more months, He is looking for a traditional type of teaching In FMA with a teacher that is heavily weapons based and works all the different ranges and levels of training in them, including staff work. His name is James North His e-mail srvbluesman66@hotmail.com If any one has a contact for him, please contact him at the above email address.. Thank you, Ms. J... Ms. Johnaleen Castro CEO/F.A.T.E. 1-888-526-4626 FATE@f-a-t-e.org www.f-a-t-e.org ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 20:37:47 PDT Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #340 **************************************** To unsubscribe from the eskrima-digest send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and the Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.