From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #422 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Sat, 22 Sept 2001 Vol 08 : Num 422 In this issue: eskrima: Re: the unbelievable II eskrima: the unbelievable II Re: eskrima: Re: the unbelievable II eskrima: US-1 Fitness in Ft Lauderdale eskrima: Mime-Version: 1.0 eskrima: Re: boxing footwork of Gabriel "Flash" Elorde eskrima: Bro in the pentagon eskrima: Masters Re: eskrima: Bro in the pentagon eskrima: Re: Ali & Robinson Re: eskrima: Re: boxing footwork of Gabriel "Flash" Elorde eskrima: . ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1200 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima-Digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Rudolf@Kimbel.net Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 01:41:43 +0200 Subject: eskrima: Re: the unbelievable II "jose saguisabal" wrote: >Rudolph wrote: Rudolf wrote: >>"I myself feel our responsibility and would like to see all arabs >>removed from safety critical education. " >You SHOULD be ashamed of yourself. I already said I'm ashamed, but not for your reasons. Germany educated and housed 13 of those directly responsible for killing over 5000 humans, many of then US citicens. I'm glad Bush is not keeping his promise to retaliate by bombing away Hamburg University, even though I could understand that. > I guess Hitler's ideology hasn't gone away. Maybe we should disarm > all Germans in case of another Holocaust. It hasn't, in Germany both Arabs and Nazi's were happy about the WTC and expressed that openly. But sure, disarm us, so we can't help the US seek justice. >We should punish all Black people for OJ's crime. I mean how can you >tell who will be next? OJ was a simple criminal, we're talking about politicly motivated mass extinction of people (5000 americans by the Arab terrorists, 6.000.000 Jews by Hitler). >White Europeans and Americans should be forced to pay back all the >Asian countries and African countries and Central/South American >countries for colonialism and genocide. That's just what the Nazi's in our country said why they're happy about the WTC attack. The US paid back. See, you've got friends in Germany. The Arabs or the Nazis, your choice. >All Africans should join the White Americans and Europeans, since some >of them took part in the Slave trade as well. Sorry, but I can't make any sense out of that in this context. >Japanese should be taken out for their attempt to colonize all of Asia. >And let's not forget Pearl Harbor. Well, the US detained all Japanese after Pearl Harbour, but it seems you're having a hard time reading english, because all I asked for was to remove the Arabs from our universities. You don't need to detain anybody to do that. >If the whole world thought like that, there would be no people left >because of the crimes of a few. Then, we'd all be governed by the >animal kingdom. Your reasoning might be somewhere in the animal kingdom. My reasoning is the result of a close look at German History. If Hitler had detained all Jews. If he had sold a peace plan to England for Palestine. If he had deported all of them to Palestine, wouldn't something have been different? Do you understand? Just a reminder, he killed them instead. I guess you're just one of those animals who don't care a shit about 5000 humans lives, just about your 'rights'. All I want is none of your kind educated to be able to commit another mass murder. Rudolf. ------------------------------ From: Rudolf@Kimbel.net Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 01:41:43 +0200 Subject: eskrima: the unbelievable II "Buz Grover" wrote: >Rudolf writes: ><< German news and papers are full of articles asking not to discriminate >arabs. I myself feel our responsibility and would like to see all arabs >removed from safety critical education. >> >Whoa! One of America's shameful chapters involves the internment of >Japanese Americans during WW II. I hope that neither Germany or any >country follows in those footsteps to any degree. As noted earlier >there are more than a billion Muslims on the planet, hundreds of >thousands at least, millions perhaps, of which live in Western >democracies. Bringing grief to the many because of the actions of the >few would not only be antithetical to democratic values, but is also >the sort of social disruption the terrorists intended. Islamic >Fundamentalists seek to radicalize the Muslim world by portraying >Western culture as incompatible with their faith. Let's not prove them >correct. >Regards, Reread my post, maybe a zillion times. Use your favorite editor, try to find the word 'detainment' ! I was talking about removing all arabs from safety critical education. This is not politics, medicine, religion or philosophy. It's Biochemistry and the like. As long as you can only say arabs did it, the right of arab's being educated must stand behind the right of humans to be alive. Reread my post again, maybe another zillion times. Use your favorite editor, try to find the word 'Muslim'. I had a great time in Banda Aceh, Sumatra. They have a beutiful Moschee. Again, reread my post. I said arabs, not Muslims. Rudolf. ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 18:27:02 PDT Subject: Re: eskrima: Re: the unbelievable II > Well, the US detained all Japanese after Pearl Harbour, but it seems > you're having a hard time reading english, because all I asked for was > to remove the Arabs from our universities. You don't need to detain > anybody to do that. I think we can read your English quite well. But I suspect that many do do not like what you're saying, at least I know that I don't. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 21:20:22 EDT Subject: eskrima: US-1 Fitness in Ft Lauderdale Original Post.. << There is an article from CNN which describes one suspected hijacker had trained at Florida gym. Here's the link: >> Yes this true, one ofthe guys learned from of my friends here, Owner and Master of Vee Jitsu, Arnis and Kung-Fu, Master Bert Hernandez, whom also instructor of the World Kickboxing Champion, Banny "Cobra" Canino. Bert Hernandez and I shared more than 12 students, 9 of Correctional Officers students and 3 Saudi Arabian/Sapnish ethnic Mother and two boys also are my students. One of the Highjackers trained with Bert as Private Students. Its sad, is in has guilty consence, but we dont know who are we teaching sometimes, that why we just have to be carefull of who you are teaching. I personaaly, feel the students if they worht teaching, if not I asked them to leave and dont come back on class. Well who knows, Okay talk to you later, Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Laguna Arnis Federation Interantional US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research Center USA ------------------------------ From: Luis Pellicer III Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 11:45:01 +0800 Subject: eskrima: Mime-Version: 1.0 >This would be counter to what many Americans fought and died for over many, many years. Freedom of religion, press, and other expression. Not to belittle the tragedy, but the cost of 10,000 lives should not allow us to give up what MANY times that have fought and died for. You want McCarthyism again? Nope, but then if there was a more efficient method on how to get rid of the existing cells, I'm all ears. But then we could just tighten up on immigration to prevent new guys from coming in, and let the existing guys blow themselves up or continue to take advantage of Americas opportunity to fund overseas operations until they're found out. Unfortunately all the perps have been of Arabian or Persian descent, if there was just ONE who fit a different racial description I would be the first to change my point of view. The writing's on the wall as to who did it, and how far they're willing to go. What rules of conduct may have applied in the 17, 1800's (or 1960's for that matter) are out the door in this case. Different time, different enemy, different methods. Circumstances determine the most effective response, not ideology. 10,000 people dying the way they did was tragic. If people don't wake up it could be 10,000,000 next time. It would be naive to think that there are people out there who wouln't try, in light of what's happened recently. >I can't get over the likelihood that if there were a few good citizens with handguns on the flights, they may not have ended as they did. Speaking as a persom who ALWAYS packs, I don't know how comfortable I would be knowing that I would be more likely to whack a guy with air rage who is also packing, than a terrorist. > >Terrible analogy. In this case, you already have A,O, and J. All you need is P. You don't have that in profiling beforehand. > A simplistic view I wrote up rather quickly. The stress point being that when somebody is out to get you and the threat is immediate, you do what you have to do to take him out. Fast & brutally. Unless you don't mind the risk of dying, or making that same decision for someone else who may not agree with you. >Sure, but for your analogy to match, you'd also have to ship all the teenagers with spiky hair or pierced bellybuttons out of town.... > No I wouldn't, but then no one with that description crashed a plane into three highly populated buildings recently. On the other hand, the people you described aren't people who I would turn my back on in a dark alley either. Innocent until proven guilty does not mean letting your guard down foolishly either. The bottom line is that in this particular threat, the terrorists were from the middle east. Thier American support system is so far, known to be made of people from the middle east. Until this support base changes, we're NOT going to find thier cells in other American ethnic communities. If you're looking for diamonds in a salt mine, you're looking in the wrong place. ------------------------------ From: "Pentjakker" Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 01:54:05 -0400 Subject: eskrima: Re: boxing footwork of Gabriel "Flash" Elorde >Not sure what Ali has had to say about all this, That be interesting to find out. In the 1990 special edition Inside Kung-Fu Presents Secret Fighting Arts of Southeast Asia (catchy eh? probably sells mags anyway), has an article by Lilia Howe entitled "Did FMA revolutionize boxing?" It quotes Elorde's sister, Jacinta Perez, as saying "I can't say for certian whether Flash taught Muhammad his footwork. I know they were close, and when Muhammad came to the Philippines he stayed with my brother. What I do know is that that particular style of footwork is from escrima..." Also that their father was an escrima "champion". Regards, Travis ------------------------------ From: Rick Lindquist Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 23:32:14 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Bro in the pentagon Kenny McD, where are you? Has anyone heard from Ken, our Kali dude on site at the Pentagon? Ken, we send you our best. Thoughts: My friend, Jake Good (Medic, 1st Air Cav), received the silver star for pulling some wounded gentlemen out of a burning tank in the A Shau valley in Nam. When, some years later, I asked him about the experience, he remarked simply " I did what my training taught me to do, I hardly remember being conscious, man. I was 'in the bubble'." I'm reminded of all those who recently have responded to their training and vision and did the right thing. Kudos. Kudos. Kudos. I think we all do what we practice to do. This lends importance to the time we spend training, or in training others. We do not always pick the circumstances that come to us. I'm sure Mr. Glick and others would rather have been home taking care of other things besides what they did on Flt 93 over Penn. Some others might hope for more challenges than tending the home fires, but who can say which jobs might be more or less important with 100% accuracy? How did our "elders" in the arts approach life? I remember when I first heard the Kali salutation version as per Thomas Cruse (yes, he does know it) and the part about "although my body may fall in combat, you will never defeat my spitit" absolutely gave me goosebumps. Life has always been hazardous, and despite modern attempts to legislate or litigate all risk out of it, things still happen. The lessons we learn from the elders are worth considering. Every time someone like Angel Cabales, Mike Inay, "Lucky-Lucky", Remy Presas, Punong guro Edgar, Tatang, and the others pass on it seems just a little more important to pay attention and try to learn the remaining lessons to the best of our ability to be able to pass them on effectively. This has been a hard week and a half. I haven't slept for shit, my dreams are filled with violent themes, and I haven't been able to stand to watch the TV. I work in an emergency room and work with and train firefighters and paramedics on a regular basis and it's just too close. But as of right now I am shaking the dust off my feet and am walking on. Here's to the world we left behind, the innocents who have died, and to moving into a new experience. Bahala na. Warmest Regards, Rick ------------------------------ From: "jose saguisabal" Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 23:41:53 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Masters Kim Satterfield wrote: Generally, in the old days, an eskrimador must be battle proven to be considered a master, and even then it was a title that was recognized and bestowed by ones' peers. To call oneself a "master of a Filipino martial art" would quickly bring about an "accreditation process" of sorts...the claimant will be challenged by other eskrimadors, to put their self-proclaimed skills to the test. Unfortunately today, the title has lost much of it's original meaning, and anyone with enough money can buy a coveted "master" certificate (however, the true masters are still recognized and respected in FMA circles). Sadly, pretenders to the throne are tolerated today much, much more than they would have been 50 years ago. Amen to that! Jay Make a difference, help support the relief efforts in the U.S. http://clubs.lycos.com/live/events/september11.asp ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 7:54:21 PDT Subject: Re: eskrima: Bro in the pentagon > Kenny McD, where are you? > > Has anyone heard from Ken, our Kali dude on site at the Pentagon? Ken has sent the list several updates since the attack. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Kes41355@aol.com Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 10:20:53 EDT Subject: eskrima: Re: Ali & Robinson In a message dated 9/21/01 3:58:00 PM Pacific Daylight Time, eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << Not sure what Ali has had to say about all this, but if you watch Robinson's fights from the 40s and Ali/Clay's from the early 60s you see a fair similarity, at least to this uneducated (in boxing) eye. >> Hi Ray, I'm a big fan of Sugar Ray Robinson myself; to me, he was the best all-around fighter ever to come up in boxing. Although he fought mainly as a middleweight, Robinson possessed awesome power in either hand. You're correct, Robinson used the same tactic as Ali to keep away from the power hand. The tactic of circling away from the power hand (orthodox-to-orthodox stance...right side forward) is a basic tenant in boxing. By moving to the left, you force the opponent to pivot on their lead leg, which throws off their power base. By moving to the left, all the opponent has to do is follow you with his lead foot, shift, and drop in the power shot, which is done all in one motion. Trying to hit a man circling to his left, as Ali was a master of, requires three motions; shift; regain balance, and fire, which spells defeat in the ring. When boxing a lefty, (right side forward to left side forward), you want to keep your lead foot on the outside of the opponent's lead foot as much as possible; keeps him from stepping in with the power shot. Just my 2 cent's worth, Kim Satterfield ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 8:02:42 PDT Subject: Re: eskrima: Re: boxing footwork of Gabriel "Flash" Elorde > >Not sure what Ali has had to say about all this, > > That be interesting to find out. In the 1990 special edition Inside Kung-Fu > Presents Secret Fighting Arts of Southeast Asia (catchy eh? probably sells > mags anyway), has an article by Lilia Howe entitled "Did FMA revolutionize > boxing?" It quotes Elorde's sister, Jacinta Perez, as saying "I can't say > for certian whether Flash taught Muhammad his footwork. I know they were > close, and when Muhammad came to the Philippines he stayed with my brother. > What I do know is that that particular style of footwork is from escrima..." > Also that their father was an escrima "champion". I'm not saying that Ali wasn't influenced by him or even others. But the above was in 1974, yes? Ali's style was already fairly well set by 1960. He obviously continued to learn and grow, especially as he aged, got heavier, and slowed down. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 8:09:13 PDT Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #422 **************************************** To unsubscribe from the eskrima-digest send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and the Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.