From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #428 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Tues, 25 Sept 2001 Vol 08 : Num 428 In this issue: eskrima: Guro, "Mentor" eskrima: my experience eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #427 eskrima: affordable JiuJitsu and/or Arnis/Eskrima/Kali in Helsinki, Finland? eskrima: Travel Warning eskrima: Masters eskrima: Speaking of Masters... eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #426 eskrima: a bit of history eskrima: Use of the title "Master" eskrima: differences eskrima: . ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1200 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima-Digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronald.Reekers@HSC.com Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 07:12:58 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Guro, "Mentor" [...If we always follow a leader or role model, when do we get the opportunity to stand in the sunlight rather than in his/her shadow, only hearing about what it is like to feel the warmth of the sun on our own body?] I really loved that sentence, because it hits to the core of learning. Learning is not a matter of following and in fact the Guro has very little to do in the overall effort. The Guro's responsibility to the student is to show the student the way, but not carry him/her along the way. I truly believe good teachers do just that. The responsibility of the student is everything else. The student must document the teaching, then diligently practice the technique, and then test out the technique by demonstration before his/her Guro. In that way, the Guro is simply a "Mentor", an "Advisor". In the end, the student learns to be a Guro by his Guro and shines that light onto subsequent students. Ron Reekers (baron) ------------------------------ From: "Marc Denny" Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 07:39:35 -0700 Subject: eskrima: my experience A Howl of Greeting to All: GP Abon wrote: Gatdula original post: << >>for dr fung where i disagree with mr inosanto is his method of teaching. i cant disagree with his fighting style so much because i never saw it or fight against it. but i believe his people learn to much to fast, >> with not enough application. Maurice Gatdula, pardon me if I may say few words on this post: I agree with you for some extent, but I think we can't really measure someone's style or system with out facing them. I also believed that some of his student has knowledge of application of his arts, to name few of them, Eric Paulson, and the some of the Dog Brothers, whether we accepted or not, they practiced combat application enough to used against anyone. ENDQUOTE As I may have mentioned before, I have had the great honor of sparring with Guro I. on various occasions. Although these were friendly spars (padded staffs/sticks, head gear, etc) I was allowed to try to score if I could. Given all the time on the mat with him in BJJ, there was no psychological hindrance. No matter--the ease with which he took me apart still puts a smile on my heart. Because of his values people have NO IDEA just how deadly this man is. Woof, Crafty Dog PS: Speaking of Eric Paulsen: I have tremedous regard for Eric, and whenever I see him ask him "show me something slick" and he does. His level is very high. ------------------------------ From: Bladewerkrr@aol.com Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 10:37:02 EDT Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #427 In a message dated 9/25/01 7:00:45 AM Pacific Daylight Time, eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << Recently, I was asked to look at the recent events through the lens of military history. I have joined the cast of thousands who have written an "open letter to Americans." >> There's a lot of material here so this might be a bit long. Several things come to mind first of all I have nowhere heard anything about these tangos being crazy or deranged (except of course there has to be a certain amount of lunacy involved with killing thousands of innocent people). Sure they are committed and tough and well versed in terrorism. But their entire ideology is based on a lie. In the Koran it is very precise in the terms that Jihad might be pursued. According to Mohammed, one may not harm a woman, or a child or the elderly or the infirm. One may not even destroy a tree that has a green leaf on it. This is the law laid down by the prophet. So becoming a terrorist violates the laws of the religion that these people give such lip service to. Do you not think that there are as many Muslims that condemn this travesty of their beliefs as there are Christians that wanna puke when some white supremacist twists the Bible to back up his hate? One thing about Americans, we may play the clown a lot, but when the crap hits the fan we can get real serious. Lot's of bad guys have found that out. Hate is something that has it's own self destruct mechanism built in Yes Patton said that moral conviction is better than strength. He also said noone ever won a war by dying his life for his country. You win wars by making the other son of a bitch die for his. Yes, they displayed some principles of a soldier. But that is like comparing how good an NFL team is by how easily they beat a bunch of JR. high schoolers. Most traditional martial artists have a problem with street fighters, but I am sure they could go through a bunch of kids like grease through a goose. What someone can do against an unaware Joe average and what he can do with a trained professional is a bit different. You say the do not fear us. I beg to disagree. They are afraid of our freedom and our way of life because given a choice very few people will choose to live under oppression and terror instead of freedom. They are afraid of almost everything, education, tolerance, women being something more than chattel (let alone thinking for themselves). They are afraid that they will be exposed for what they really are, just another bully, trying to make the whole world conform to their idea of right. You say that they are ready and willing to die to the last man. Are they? Will they continue to be that way, when rather than just shooting off our mouths, or taking out some territory with technology, we show them we are ready and willing to go toe to toe and nose to nose with them? A lot of gang bangers run that crap too when all they have to be courageous about is a drive by. Things change when it's a one on one with somebody that is committed to survival. who marched to war cheered on by flag waving Americans in 1965 were > > reviled and spat upon less than three years later when they returned. I also take exception to this. Did it happen sure it did and the media covered it a lot. But there was not, as some would have you think, a complete reviling of the American fighting man in this country. As, usual to a great number of Americans, there is New York and California and a great wasteland in between. There weren't the parades that WW II vets got because they came back, not as entire units, but as individuals. But I know that for many they did get a hometown welcome. There were many areas of our country whose "song of the era" was "Oakie from Muskogee," not "Where have all the Flowers gone." I have talked to many people also. I don't find the frustration you describe. I find basically a bunch of people that are pissed off. And they are doing something. Helping with the relief effort for the familles of the victims, giving blood, getting up and going to work and telling the Bin Ladins of the Universe that they can kiss our respective ass. Nietzche said "That which does not destroy me, strengthens me." We were not destroyed. Bear ------------------------------ From: Angorafrosch@gmx.net Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 17:49:05 +0200 Subject: eskrima: affordable JiuJitsu and/or Arnis/Eskrima/Kali in Helsinki, Finland? Hi list, I asked the same question a few months ago, but since then I switched computers, so stored information is out of reach. So once again I am on the lookout. I currently live in Pasila, Helsinki and search primarily for Jiu Jitsu, as it seems to be my core art (preferably non-traditional) secondarily for any kind of FMA. I only had exposure to Modern Arnis for a year and a half, so my knowledge is pretty slim and I'm not focused on a certain style. The only condition is that training fees should be as cheap as possible, since life in finland is way more expensive that I ever thought it would be :-( Thanks in advance, Hinnerk Ebert - -- Those who live by the sword get shot by those who donīt. [Klaus Kessler in de.rec.sport.budo] ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 8:32:48 PDT Subject: eskrima: Travel Warning Yet another travel warning. Ray ==================================================================== INDONESIA Travel Warning United States Department of State Bureau of Consular Affairs Washington, DC 20520 September 24, 2001 The Department of State urges American citizens to defer nonessential travel to Indonesia and all travel to Aceh, Maluku, Papua, West Timor, Central West Kalimantan (Borneo), Central Sulawesi, Central Java, and Yogyakarta. Those who must travel to Indonesia, or who are resident there, should exercise extreme caution. The September 11 terrorist attacks in the United States heighten the need for vigilance on the part of American citizens resident in or traveling through Indonesia. While the Government of Indonesia has condemned these terrorist attacks, some radical Indonesian groups have threatened to attack U.S. facilities and expel American citizens from Indonesia if the U.S. strikes any Muslim country in response to the September 11 terrorist attacks in the United States. All American citizens in Indonesia are urged to exercise maximum caution and take prudent measures. This includes maintaining a strong security posture by being aware of their surroundings, avoiding crowds and demonstrations, keeping a low profile, varying times and routes for all required travel and notifying the nearest U.S. Embassy or Consulate in case of any change in the local security situation. American citizens are also urged to treat mail and packages from unfamiliar sources with suspicion. The U.S. Embassy in Jakarta has received information that indicates extremist elements may be planning to target U.S. interests in Indonesia, particularly U.S. Government facilities, and could also extend to U.S. tourists and tour groups. In addition, social unrest and violence can erupt with little forewarning anywhere in the country. Bombings of religious, political and business targets have occurred throughout the country. Due to the continuing threat of serious violence, all travel should be avoided to the regions of Aceh, Maluku, West Timor, Central and West Kalimantan and Central Sulawesi. Further, all travel by U.S. and other foreign government officials to Aceh, Papua and the Moluccas (provinces of North Maluku and Maluku) has been restricted by the Indonesian government because of security concerns. Private Americans should adhere to these same restrictions. On occasion, the U.S. mission in Indonesia may have to suspend services to the public or close because of security concerns. In those situations, the Embassy will continue to be available by telephone to offer emergency services to American citizens. A massive bombing campaign struck churches throughout Indonesia on Christmas Eve 2000, leaving at least 16 dead and over one hundred injured. Bombings occurred in the cities of Medan, Pekanbaru, Batam, Bandung, Sukabumi, Bekasi, Jakarta, Mojokerto, Surabaya and Mataram. Bombings have also occurred over the past year at Indonesian government buildings, foreign diplomatic facilities and business and financial centers, including the Jakarta Stock Exchange. More explosive devices have been discovered in Jakarta since Christmas and there are indications that the bombings may continue. Some foreign travelers in troubled areas of Indonesia have been subject to arbitrary arrest, detention and deportation and, on at least one occasion, false accusations of espionage. In November 2000 and September 2001 in the central Java city of Solo, groups opposed to U.S. policy undertook or threatened "sweeps," trying to identify American citizens and order them to depart the country. There also have been a number of acts of intimidation and violence directed at American companies and U.S. diplomatic facilities. Indonesian security officials have sometimes been unwilling or unable to respond. The Abu Sayyaf terrorist group has been active throughout the islands in the extreme southwest Philippines, near Indonesia, and have kidnapped American citizens in the Philippines. American citizens traveling to the border regions in Northern Kalimantan and North Sulawesi, in particular the smaller islands closer to the Philippines, are urged to review their security procedures. Updated information on travel and security in Indonesia may be obtained from the U.S. Embassy in Jakarta by calling tel. (62)(21)3435-9000, or the Consulate General in Surabaya by calling tel. (62)(31) 567-2287/8. For further information, U.S. citizens are advised to consult the Department of State's Consular Information Sheet for Indonesia. The Consular Information Sheet is available at any U.S. embassy or consulate abroad and through the Department of State, Bureau of Consular Affairs Internet home page at http://travel.state.gov. This Travel Warning supersedes the September 20, 2001, Travel Warning for Indonesia to inform U.S. citizens of changes in the security situation in Indonesia. See http://travel.state.gov/travel_warnings.html for State Department Travel Warnings ------------------------------ From: "al sardinas" Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 12:00:30 -0400 Subject: eskrima: Masters On the subject of Masters, I make a bet with anyone that there are a lot of masters out there that we don't know about especially in the Philippines. Also one can read the books by Wiley and the late Edgar Sulite on various masters that are not well known. And as far as true masters being recognized and respected in FMA circles (as Mr. Saguisabal wrote), does not guarantee validity. I tend to agree with Mr. Brook that we could have 15 GM's lay down standards for being a Master but we still could not get a general agreement. To give you an example, let me take the case of my own instructor, Gat Puno Baet. Ten years ago, I knew of Inosanto, Gaje, Presas, Cabales and Canete. Who was Baet? What was Garimot? No one knew, but it was my luck to meet him at an Inosanto seminar. Based on my prior experience, I immediately recognized him as a Master and because of the untimely death of my previous instructor and with the blessing of the deceased instructor's son, I began studying with him. Through the years I have witnessed two esteemed well known Masters and the students (Guros, Sifus, etc) of other well known Masters either discredit or belittle the mastery of my instructor. Too bad because I know it was their loss. Anyway, to cut this short, the point I'm trying to make is that in the FMA we should first and always respect anyone who calls himself a Master. And second, if we determine or think that the person is a fraud or lacks skill, we should keep it to ourself. Because rotten fruit will reveal itself. Respectfully, Al Sardinas Student of Garimot System of Arnis ------------------------------ From: "al sardinas" Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 12:23:13 -0400 Subject: eskrima: Speaking of Masters... Speaking of Masters of the FMA's, because of the internet and especially through ED, I have come to know of Mangisursuro Inay, Grandmasters Presas (Ernesto)and Taboada. I know there are many Masters and Guros on this list that I have learned of but did not mention because basically they are hybrids or students of the other Grandmasters that I have previously mentioned and the list would be too lengthy. However, I would like to take this opportunity to mention a Grandmaster that I met recently in Orlando, he is Maestro Bernardo Salinas, founder of the Sinkatan Arnis*Estrella. For more information on him and his system you can visit his site at: http://www.geocities.com/arnis_estrella/ Another Grandmaster and system to be acknowledged and learned about. Respectfully, Al Sardinas Student of Garimot System of Arnis ------------------------------ From: "hudginsg" Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 09:45:23 -0500 Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #426 > >My students both in training and ability keep me on my toes. They help me > >learn as much as I do them. > > But are you striving to have them become better than you? > > >I like to look at Guro Inosanto as a man who is always a student. > >Never satisfied with his current level. > >Always striving for more knowledge and ability. > >To me, this is where we should all be. > > A good role model to be sure, however are you sure that you want to follow > that path as opposed to striking out on your own journey through life and > the arts? If we always follow a leader or role model, when do we get the > opportunity to stand in the sunlight > rather than in his/her shadow, only hearing about what it is like to > feel the warmth of the sun on ouur own body? God I love this digest. I just love putting in my 2 cents worth even when it is not worth two cents. In response to the above, here goes. ;-) Life is like a dog sled race. If you are not the lead dog The scenery is always the same. LOL Apologies to the dog brothers LOL again. G H. By the way in an reprint of an old jujitsu book the foreward referred not to "masters" but "adepts". One who has good skills. This was of course referring to different students. ------------------------------ From: "Marc Denny" Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 10:17:53 -0700 Subject: eskrima: a bit of history A Howl of Greeting to All: Well, with Meghan's comments, it seems like we are going to spend a bit more time with this after all. I would like to share the following which is written by someone who wishes to remain anonymous, but for whom I have the highest regard, so that some glib nonsense floating around may be seen from a more informed perspective. Crafty Dog - -------------------------- "The US wants stability in the region so that oil can flow freely and so that the Suez Canal remains open for trade. It does have treaty guarantees with Israel that began in the cold war era when the Soviets made a bid for control of the Suez Canal through Gamel Nasser. The Soviets provided substantial military aid to Nasser's Egypt. The US then increased its support to Israel as a means of maintaining influence close to the canal. Recall that the Brits and French had intervened in the Suez in 1956. Nasser responded by enlisting Syria in the short lived United Arab Republic and, with Soviet encouragement, sought to encircle Israel for the purpose of depriving the Suez Canal to the West. With Soviet military assistance, Egypt and Syria co-opted Jordan into joining them in two full scale wars to destroy Israel. They lost both wars and those losses resulted in Israel gaining Gaza, Golan, Sinai and old Jordanian territory on both sides of the Jordan River. Only after Israel gained that territory did the Palestinian issue come to the forefront. Until then, the Palestinians were unwanted by all parties. "When Nasser died and Sadat succeeded him, the US was able to pry Sadat away from Soviet influence. One inducement was the return of Sinai to Egypt together with lots of American aid. Egypt really did not want Gaza back because of the Palestinian problem there. So, they dumped it on Israel. "However, Syria still remained under Soviet influence. The Soviets also gained influence in Iraq. The Soviets then shifted the focus of their destabilization efforts to the Persian Gulf region using the old fertile crescent of Syria and Iraq. Soviet aid to Syria enabled it, in turn, to foster the earliest versions of Hizballah and Islamic Jihad in southern Lebanon. Also, they used the PLO and PLF. "All of these Soviet efforts trace their origins back to imperial Russia's efforts to find an outlet to the Mediterranean. But NATO through Turkey controlled the Bosporus. So, Russia tried to gain access to the Persian Gulf through Iran. But the US blocked those efforts when it got the Shah installed via the CIA-led Mossadegh coup in about 1954. The Soviets hoped that Khomeini would be receptive to them after he deposed the Shah in 1979. However, the Russians were never able to gain influence in Iran. So, they persuaded Sadaam Hussein to engage in a war against Iran. The US also backed Hussein because they sought to destabilize Khomeini and regain their influence in Iran. Notice that Iraq's objective was also the USSR's, a seaport for its oil. When the Iranian campaign failed, Hussein still sought a seaport by taking Kuwait. "Concurrently, in the 1980's, Soviet backed Syria propped up the Palestinian movement for several reasons. Syria wanted the Golan back. They also wanted sea access and Lebanon was easier than Israel. Lebanon was ruled by the Christian minority. So Syria enlisted Iran's fundamentalist aid in order to replace the Christian minority government with Muslims. They succeeded. That gave Syria (and by proxy, the USSR) access to the Mediterranean. "However, the cost to Syria was the co-opting of these insurrectionists by Iranian Islamic fundamentalism. Their increased beligerence led Israel to occupy southern Lebanon. It was this act, more than anything else, that led the Islamic fundamentalists to extend their hatred of Israel beyond mostly words. Israel had occupied Muslim territory. Now, the conflict had been transformed from a political one to a religous-political battle. "In other words, this is a lot more complicated than oil and Israel. Now, the real US policy is built upon oil. But old habits are hard to break. Sorry to have gone on so long." - -------------------------- ------------------------------ From: "jose saguisabal" Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 10:27:01 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Use of the title "Master" Hello to all, The use of the title of "Master" is a community term, from what I've gotten from several FMA leaders I've met. My instructor says that one can MASTER and art, and to be referred to as an art's MASTER, but it's pretty tacky to insist on being addressed as MASTER. The community of instructors may recognize one as a MASTER. Finally, within a school, one who has three or more generations of instructor ranked students under him (with an entire rank structure/beginner to advanced separating the generations) may be called a school's MASTER. However, he prefers to refer to Masters as "manong" or "tatang". For muslims it is considered haram (forbidden) to call another man "Master", so he, of course, will have a separate set of values from the rest of the FMA community. As far as the title "Guro" or "Guru", we feel that anyone who is considered an expert and has given at least others within his circle the opportunity to witness or challenge his worthiness to use that title (for ex., an exam) deserves to be called Guro, because he has earned it. Jay Make a difference, help support the relief efforts in the U.S. http://clubs.lycos.com/live/events/september11.asp ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 12:24:40 PDT Subject: eskrima: differences > As far as the title "Guro" or "Guru", we feel that anyone who is considered > an expert and has given at least others within his circle the opportunity to > witness or challenge his worthiness to use that title (for ex., an exam) > deserves to be called Guro, because he has earned it. This is a hopefully a good place to reinforce the point. As the arts/orgs/ schools vary, the terms used will vary. What may seem like an unusual term in some FMA circles will be in common use in other FMA circles. e.g. in Doce Pares the titles Master and Grandmaster are used, not Guro/Guru, etc, but at least the title Guro is understood. (see http://www.docepares.com/ranks1.htm for a listing of the various Masters and Grandmasters in the Doce Pares Federation) However, then visit other martial arts circles and try to use the title Guro (1. a preceptor giving personal religious instruction. 2. an intellectual or spiritual guide.) and they are likely to think you're a real nut case. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 12:50:22 PDT Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #428 **************************************** To unsubscribe from the eskrima-digest send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and the Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.