From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #429 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Tues, 25 Sept 2001 Vol 08 : Num 429 In this issue: eskrima: Teachers eskrima: Re: group to decide master or no eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #426 eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #427 eskrima: Values eskrima: Re: master or no master eskrima: Grandmaster ?? eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #428 eskrima: off topic eskrima: . ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1200 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima-Digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: boyd5755@att.net Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 20:21:56 +0000 Subject: eskrima: Teachers Mr. Reekers says: rom: Ronald.Reekers@HSC.com Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 07:12:58 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Guro, "Mentor" [...If we always follow a leader or role model, when do we get the opportunity to stand in the sunlight rather than in his/her shadow, only hearing about what it is like to feel the warmth of the sun on our own body?] I really loved that sentence, because it hits to the core of learning. Learning is not a matter of following and in fact the Guro has very little to do in the overall effort. The Guro's responsibility to the student is to show the student the way, but not carry him/her along the way. I truly believe good teachers do just that. The responsibility of the student is everything else. The student must document the teaching, then diligently practice the technique, and then test out the technique by demonstration before his/her Guro. In that way, the Guro is simply a "Mentor", an "Advisor". In the end, the student learns to be a Guro by his Guro and shines that light onto subsequent students. I would like to add a quote by Amos Alcott: "The true teacher defends his pupils against his own personal influence....He guides their eyes from himself to the spirit that quickens him. Best regards, Boyd Ritchie Ron Reekers (baron) ------------------------------ From: "LARRY ST. CLAIR" Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 15:12:20 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Re: group to decide master or no Ernest wrote: >Then we have another possible problem looming on the horizion... >for the sake of discussion, what if a group of FMAists got together >and publicized a criteria for 'master and grand master' status, >based on a combination of objective criteria and the collective backgrounds >of 15 known GMs. Could we expect to have a general >agreement and acceptence of the standard among most (we would never get all) >current FMAs instructors? I wonder! Given the tendenccy that I have >noticed among a number of posters over the couple years that I have been >reading this digest, I would expect a number of people to take the position >of supporting their own instructors and >denying the credibility of others. it would be nice to have a council or something of the sorts to create some sort of criteria. maybe they don't say whos who but a list of 10 qualities of a well qualified FM instructor (ok fine use the term M or GM, lol) but it would be nice, saint ------------------------------ From: "LARRY ST. CLAIR" Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 15:18:38 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #426 Ernest wrote: >Brandon Tapps wrote: >>Subject: eskrima: Masterhood >> >>I'm not qualified to say who can use the title of >>"Master" in FMA but I do have food for thought. >> >>Dan Inasanto, in the preface of his book Filipino >>Martial arts claims " I'm no master only a guro. > >Perhaps, appropriate at that time, but do you really consider >him to be "...only a guro." I would suggest that he is more >and the fact that he has been presented on almost every list >of Master Instructors of the FMAs, presented to this digest, >would indicate to me that others perceive him to be a master. ............. See now this is right on. Guro Inosanto still considers himself a student to this day, but we on the other hand can consider him a Master or Grand Master. This is because he has the skill, but he still tries to research other areas and grow even further. Saint ------------------------------ From: "LARRY ST. CLAIR" Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 15:26:54 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #427 Dieter wrote: >Grandmaster: I have 2 experiences with a filipino grandmaster. I will not mention his name here. One thing is, that he told me, with not even 40 years of age, something like:" You know Dieter, once you are a Grandmaster and know everything..." ?????????????? I thought that this was a very strange statement. The second eprience with him was, that in the early years, when I asked how whe should call or approach him, he would say to use his first name. But suddenly things changed, and he wanted to be called Grandmaster. So far so good, no problem. But then I had the experience during a breakfast, where his own wife asked: "Grandmaster, can you please pass the sugar." I thought this is really weired. Still he is a very respected GM, also here on the list. .............. I'm with you there Dieter. I've had weird experiences. Both from group appointed and self appointed Grand Masters. Saint ------------------------------ From: POWERFACTOR71839@aol.com Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 16:34:25 EDT Subject: eskrima: Values << No matter--the ease with which he took me apart still puts a smile on my heart. Because of his values people have NO IDEA just how deadly this man is. >> Gee, this sounds like people who see Paul DeThouars for the first time, at 70 plus, belly, and puffing a cigarette. Gentleness can be deceiving, teaching progressions and drills are not sparring, and sparring is not fighting for your life. Exposing the masses to a broad based curriculum to plant the seeds of interest cannot be confused with shallow, volume-based teaching. I'd have a Guru Inosanto or a Pendekar Paul in my corner anytime. Tom Furman ------------------------------ From: "LARRY ST. CLAIR" Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 16:34:40 -0700 Subject: eskrima: Re: master or no master Ernest wrote: >I bet that the term and its acceptence predates your time in the martial arts! And I would further bet that "tradition" is going to play a major role in that term being used in the MAs after you have departed the scene. I would agree with you. the term Master or GM has been around forever. Since people were able to notice that someone had skill or ability. However in this day and age it is used all too loosely. Just as the term "black belt" is used. The commercialization of the arts has forced this issue. When you first walk into many schools you can become part of the Black Belt Club. Now don't get me wrong, this is great for marketing; but what is after black belt. Hmmm, they never think about that. There are many people that drop out right after obtaining their quote unquote black belt. Because too much stress is placed on the term and achievement, not the road traveled. In the days of no belts it is like Ron Reekers said (426), " Titles are mostly based on current knowledge, but there is always so much more to do and learn. " and the same with a paraphrase of Tuhon McGrath (427), " Other systems have belts, we have scars." The same with Master or GM. The stress is too much on the terms and not on the fact that there are still levels to be obtained in skill and better ways to teach material. PG Sulite once said that Illustrisimo had no style of teaching. But in recent years, Tony Diego and others have really put it together into a rock solid system (paraphrased). To me you must constantly test the material and improve the curriculum and drills in order to grow further and make your students better. ............ also Ernest also wrote: > But are you striving to have them become better than you? ........... On that note, hell yeah I'm trying to make them better. In matches and fights I don't want them making the same mistakes I did. We must all learn from those around us. Master, GM, Guro or not. ............ also Ernest also wrote: > Boy, do I wish that you were correct! There is so much to learn and there are people whose minds are so closed that they stopped learning years ago and they might be young(?) and many years away frorm physical death. Look at what the word "master" could mean, in terms of being "a master" of a particular skill. In Japan, there are people who are designated as "living masters". Does that mean that they have 'mastered the art and science of living'? No! It means that they are particularly skilled at some small aspect of doing/performing a skilled activity! They are not perfect people with nothing more to learn, they simply better skilled than most others at a particular task AND they can explain it (teach it)! ............ Not everyone is a good teacher though. As many people know, there are those that are historians, technicians and fighters; but very rarely are there those who can actually do all. You are correct about the master of an everyday skill that you could learn; however to me the term still says that you are one hundred percent competent in your field. Then, ooops, some new technology comes out that makes your field produce even better quality skills. Now you make your way to learning something new to keep up with the skills of your competition. Its not so much that you couldn't get the job done the same old way, but it is possible to get it done better for your client. To me if you can convert a roof block to a strike better than me then I want to train with you and find out how you do that. Its always about getting better. In the arena of NHB and BJJ, there are no unknown locks. Everyone knows almost everything you know. So therefore you must train and drill until you get a better understanding of how to get into those locks. It is those that are looking for new methods of training that are on the edge of being champions. To me it's where we find new drills within our arts to make our skills even better. On that note if I wasn't giving my student ingredients to be better than me, then I think I would not be teaching them fairly. I know many teachers that hold back too much information and never allow the students to become really good. By not holding back material it makes them really good and much harder for me to work against. This makes the training good for both of us. .......... Ernest also wrote: >A good role model to be sure, however are you sure that you want to follow that path as opposed to striking out on your own journey through life and the arts? If we always follow a leader or role model, when do we get the opportunity to stand in the sunlight rather than in his/her shadow, only hearing about what it is like to feel the warmth of the sun on ouur own body? .......... On a final note, I never said that I was following the same path that Guro Inosanto takes. I however see the meaning in a saying a read many years ago in my early training. It read " do not follow in others foot steps, rather seek what they sought" (poss a little paraphrased) To me each of our journeys are different and we will all find our own path. Sometimes it happens by accident and sometimes its is forced. I enjoy training and I enjoy "reflecting". Each one of my days is spent training and everyone one of my nights is spent reflecting. To me this is the only way we truly get better. Thanks for the advice and train on, Saint ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 16:36:39 PDT Subject: eskrima: Grandmaster ?? > the term Master or GM has been around forever. I believe that Grandmaster is a fairly new development. I don't recall it being used in the 1960s. Seems like it came about in the 1970s or 80s, or at least became more wide spread. ??? What is the recollection of others? Seems that part of the problem comes from trying to come up with western terms for Japanese/Chinese/Korean/Filipino terms. If a Korean art uses Sabumnim or Japanese art uses Sensei or a Chinese art uses Sifu, we're ok. But when we attempt to adapt and adopt western terms we end up with Master and Headmaster and Grandmaster and Great Grandmaster and Professor and Chief and Regional High Chief and Chief Headmaster and Supreme Grandmaster and ... Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: "Anthony James Hawkins" Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 19:19:32 -0400 Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #428 All of these "were only in it for the oil" people remind me of the treehugers from Kalifornia who protested and fought against power plants in their state and spent all summer B*&%$ing about the blackouts. Its easy to armchair quarterback foreign policy looking back on history. Its harder to make decisions when you cant keep the lights on and gas is reaching $3.00 a gal. AJ _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 17:03:17 PDT Subject: eskrima: off topic Folks, Again we've strayed way off topic. Sorry that I didn't filter out a couple of posts the last 36 hours, but I had a some minor surgery yesterday and am just now starting to care much about anything. Thanks for taking the off topic discussions offline. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 17:08:36 PDT Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #429 **************************************** To unsubscribe from the eskrima-digest send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and the Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.