From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #463 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Fri, 19 Oct 2001 Vol 08 : Num 463 In this issue: eskrima: blood grooves eskrima: Re: Blood groove eskrima: blood groove faq eskrima: Re: Saterday Seminar Reminder........ eskrima: Re: Silat Seminars eskrima: Blood groove eskrima: . ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1200 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). http://InayanEskrima.com http://Inayan.com Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima-Digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TABULA RAZA Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 14:08:51 -1000 (HST) Subject: eskrima: blood grooves Aloha, As I recall, I heard blood grooves were to help facilitate better drawing out of the blade. The blood grooves allow air to enter the stab area to prevent a tight vaccuum from forming. A tight vaccuum would keep the knife in and would be much much harder for a person to draw out and keep on fighting. Or I could be wrong . . .just what I heard:) Assalamu Alai Kum (Peace Be With You All), Erwin Legaspi "If we cleanse the doors of perception, everything would appear as it is . . .infinite." - William Blake "Intellect and intelligence do not go together. Intelligence is obtained only when the heart and mind reach an agreement." - Jiddu Krishnamurti "It is like a finger pointing to the moon . . .don't concentrate on the finger or you will miss all that heavenly glory." - Enter the Dragon, Bruce Lee ------------------------------ From: Cordon1964@cs.com Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 23:28:56 EDT Subject: eskrima: Re: Blood groove As i remember, the blood groove was designed to allow the person using the knife the ability to pull the knife out.The story goes that when you plunge a knife into a body a vacumn will be created . this will hold the knife in place, possibly making you lose your your grip and your weapon. The purpose of the blood groove is to allow air in the wound so no vacumn is created,allowing for easy removal of the knife. Well at least that `s what i was told in the marines ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 22:47:01 PDT Subject: eskrima: blood groove faq The Blood Groove FAQ, from the infamous "Mr. Knife". Hi Jat... :) Ray ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Author: Joe Talmadge Last Updated: May 1998 What is a Blood Groove For? This question comes up every 8 months or so. The blood groove on a knife probably is derived from the channel present on swords, where it is called a "fuller". There are some persistent myths floating around about the function of blood grooves, from "releases the vacuum when the knife is thrust into a person" to "no functional use, purely decorative". Let's talk about these wrong answers first, before we talk about the right answers. Wrong Answer #1: Releasing the Body Suction Basically, this theory postulates that the blood groove is present to facilitate withdrawing the knife from a person/animal. In this scenario, it is said that the animal's muscles contract around the knife blade, and that this causes a vacuum, which makes the knife difficult to withdraw. But on a knife with a blood groove, blood runs through the blood groove and breaks the suction, so the knife can be withdrawn with less difficulty. One problem is that there's no evidence that this suction ever really happens. Also, over and over again people report that there is no difference whatsoever in the difficulty of withdrawing a knife with a blood groove vs. one without. This is one theory that has been tested and found wanting. Yes, I realize you may have heard this myth from your deadly knife instructor, or read it in a book somewhere. But the experts agree that it is false. If your knife can cut its way in, it can just as easily cut its way out, with or without a blood groove. And with that, I am going to change terminology from "blood groove" to "fuller", since we all now know the so-called "blood groove" is not playing a blood-channeling function. Wrong Answer #2: Purely Decorative There is a grain of truth to this one. Although a fuller does play a functional role, on a short knife the effect might be so small as to be insignificant. Many believe the fuller plays a strictly decorative role on knives or swords under 2 feet long. As the knife or sword gets bigger, the fuller plays an increasingly important role. On smaller knives, it is indeed probably just decorative. RIGHT ANSWERS: Okay, so what substantive role does the blood groove/fuller play? The bottom line is, it does two things: 1. It stiffens the blade 2. It lightens the blade That first statement has been the subject of some controversy, with some people sending me equations purporting to show that the removal of material cannot make the blade stiffer. I will table for now the question of "does the blade get stiffer, in some absolute sense, due to the fuller?" Rather, I'll weaken the claim to say that the blade *feels* stiffer to the user who is waving it around -- because it's stiffer for its weight. I'll reproduce a post by Jim Hrisoulas which lays things out clearly (re-printed with permission): When you fuller a blade you do several things: 1: You lighten it by using less material, as the act of forging in the fuller actually widens the blade, so you use less material than you would if you forged an unfullered blade. (In stock removal the blade would also be lighter, as you would be removing the material instead of leaving it there). 2: You stiffen the blade. In an unfullered blade, you only have a "single" center spine. This is especially true in terms of the flattened diamond cross section common to most unfullered double- edged blades. This cross section would be rather "whippy" on a blade that is close to three feet long. Fullering produces two "spines" on the blade, one on each side of the fuller where the edge bevels come in contact with the fuller. This stiffens the blade, and the difference between a non-fullered blade and a fullered one is quite remarkable. Fullers on knives do the same thing, although on a smaller blade the effects are not as easily seen or felt. Actually looking at fullers from an engineering point of view they really are a sophisticated forging technique, and it was the fullered swordblade that pointed the way to modern "I" beam construction. When combined with proper distal tapers, proper heat treating and tempering, a fullered blade will, without a doubt, be anywhere from 20% to 35% lighter than a non-fullered blade without any sacrifice of strength or blade integrity. Fullers were not "blood grooves" or there to "break the suction" or for some other grisly purpose. They served a very important structural function. That's all. I have spent the last 27 years studying this and I can prove it beyond any doubt... ------------------------------ From: "johnaleen" Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 03:59:17 -0400 Subject: eskrima: Re: Saterday Seminar Reminder........ Traditional Doce Pares Espada ya Daga Seminar. Bring your sticks, wood knives. Instructor: Sifu Ken Andes Assistant Instructor: Don Pentz. Traditional Tribal Drumbeats: Mr. Ian Carroll Location: Ventnor City VFW Hall 601 North Dorset Ave. Ventnor City New Jersey. For maps and directions: http://www.f-a-t-e.org/fundraising/espadadp.html Date: Saturday October 20th, 11:00 am to 3:30 pm Price on the day: $ 55.00 For further information Call or Email Mr. Biff 1-800-761-4946 Email ESPADA@f-a-t-e.org ------------------------------ From: "Pentjakker" Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 08:42:27 -0400 Subject: eskrima: Re: Silat Seminars Regrettably the following Seminar in New Hampshire has been postponed until further notice. Regards, Travis > For those of you who are in New England and would like a taste of some > Pentjak Silat with an emphasis on beladiri (self-defense), don't miss this > opportunity! > > Guru Jim Ingram will share from Pukulan Pentjak Silat Mustika Kweetang. An > art composed of multiple strikes, takedowns, sweeps, joint locks, > grappling/wrestling, stick and knife fighting. The system is a combination > of finesse, applying physics, knowledge of anatomy, and how energy is > directed. The emphasis is on econmy of motion and realistic self defense. > > The seminar will be at Don Mackay's Martial Arts Academy in > Nashua, NH - POSTPONED - (was on Saturday, October 20) from 10:00 a.m. to 2:00 p.m.? (No lunch > break) > > Preregistration is $50.00\ > $65.00 at the door. > > For more information and directions, contact: > > (ph) 603-889-6181 > (fx) 603-889-1497 ------------------------------ From: "paul martin" Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 14:09:51 +0000 Subject: eskrima: Blood groove As far as I know the blood groove is designed to reduce the vacuum affect that pins a blade in the target when you thrust. If you stab a living thing with a flat blade it the body seals around the blade and a vacuum is formed. The blood groove is designed to leave a small opening that reduces the suction of the vacuum making it easier to withdraw the blade. Paul _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 8:10:06 PDT Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #463 **************************************** To unsubscribe from the eskrima-digest send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and the Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.