From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #521 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Thur, 6 Dec 2001 Vol 08 : Num 521 In this issue: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #520 eskrima: Re:#517 Kombaton and Modern Arnis eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #520 eskrima: Silat Serak Camp eskrima: Balisong openings eskrima: Island Dog in the Cage eskrima: Reply - Whose Art is Better? eskrima: Flashy Balisong Openings eskrima: . ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1100 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). http://InayanEskrima.com Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima-Digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "johnaleen" Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 09:13:02 -0500 Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #520 **** With a balisong, as you play with it, you learn and discover new and innovative ways to open it. You can't help it. I was just curious how many ways different individuals have found to open it. That's all. Sheesh . . . R Saturno, Jr. ****** Dear R Saturno, Jr.. when i was a young child of around 7 or so i was introduced to the balisong in a very nasty and painful way, from the age of 8 to 15 i carried one with me wherever i went, i managed to use it and save my life with it on occasion, but it was never with a fancy flips and manipulations. i played with it on occasion but, based on why i had that knife and why i was carrying it, the fancy stuff was never used... then i put the knife down and did not pic it up again for 15 years, after i put the bali away i started caring a sheath knife or standard lock type flip knife. now in my old age, i use the balisong openings and practice of the knife for opening my ki channels in my hands and relieving the swelling of rheumatoid arthritis in my fingers so my hands work and are awake.... i tend to use less then 4 openings and closing and i work with 2 grips, why? well because there really the only practical grips and openings for myself based on my needs and usage of the knife.... Note: MY NEEDS AND USAGE Each have there own evolution to the balisong, it can be a painful one at times if your not careful. my students pick up my knives and i warn them there sharp and each time they still dont listen and get nicks on there hands from trying to swing them about to look cool..... even though i have one that has a taped blade they go for the live one first off. cool is not going to save you in a fight or against someone who is flinging the knife about in 30 different openings and closings.....wile their doing that i would be taking the wasted time their spending acting cool to control the fight and either get out of dodge or stop the threat. seriously, say you have someone there in front of you, they have 2 balisongs and there swinging them around all over the place..... why am i going to stand there and wait for them to finish there show? the realty is, each will use what is best suited for themselves... their goals and needs. PS for me the Balisong has always been a very fun and useful training tool for many reasons, but i have always managed to keep the realty of what is real in place first with it... Ms. J bows deeply..... " Ego Kills, Awareness Saves your Life" ------------------------------ From: "Mark Lynn" Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 06:30:29 -0600 Subject: eskrima: Re:#517 Kombaton and Modern Arnis I have a question about Modern Arnis and Kombatan. What are the structural differences between the two styles? Do the styles = have different attack and Defense strategies? Is their training structure/curicullum different? Do they place emphasis on different things? Any information would be greatly appreciated.> Jon I have had the fortune to attend several camps/seminars with both Grandmasters Remy and Ernesto Presas over the past 7 years here in the states. IMHO both of the systems are similar and they blend well = together at the beginning stages. However the advanced techniques/teachings or = the fighting concepts found within each system (in the advanced stages) and = the differences between them I can't shed much light on. But I can shed some light on the training structure/curriculum differences etc. Please bear in mind this is = seminar instruction I am talking about. The Professor (GM Remy) spent a lot of time in the mid 90's till he retired teaching a series of drills called Tapi Tapi during his seminars. Found within these drills he would tie in many of the locks and traps, throws, takedowns, hits and disarming techniques that he would cover during the = 3-4 day camp. Also he would tie in other drills based on single sinawali (double stick), 2 sticks vs. 1 stick, even double stick disarming drills all could/would be tied into this drill series. At more advanced levels of = play the concepts of baiting, faking and leading the opponent would come into play as well. However this method of instruction could be confusing as well, I remember a series of techniques that was taught to me in 96 (in the drill) one way, only to be taught a "safer" way of play in 97 = and then in 2000 shown the more combative method which was the way I was = shown in 96. And now that I went to one of the camps with the Masters of Tapi Tapi = (this past summer) they in turn shed even more light on the drill and what goes on, and I = realize that I was only just beginning to get a glimpse of the drill structure. Anyway the Tapi drills played a large part in the Professor's Modern = Arnis system. The Professor also taught his empty hand system based on jujitsu techniques. GM Remy used single sinawali patterns to teach locking techniques, traps = and set ups, and then from there he would move into lock flows. His empty hand Tapi drills (Chain of hands, sorry forgot the correct terms spelling) he would use to teach = not only punching and defending against the punch, but also locks and = takedowns as well. There were also about 5-6 standard ground locking techniques = and variations of getting the person to the floor that would be covered as = well. The Professor when he was feeling good and "on" (in his element) was phenomenal demonstrating and flowing with his techniques. No one comes close to my mind. GM Ernesto uses somewhat of the same approach in tying techniques and = drills together only he does it with his back and forth drills. Here one = student feeds a technique and the other blocks, and then he feeds and the other students blocks and so on. Each person stepping in when they feed and stepping back when they block. But GM Ernesto will change things up = with different weapons (stick to stick, knife to stick, knife to empty hand, = etc) thereby changing the distancing between partners etc. At first he will start out with a set of responses to the feed, and then at the end it is = a freestyle response. And these responses would be carried on to the next drill with the different weapons (if applicable). GM Ernesto also taught/teaches a wider variety of techniques amongst a larger group of weapons. He might start out with 2 hours of double = stick flow drills and finishing up with his block and strike drills series = off of either his 14 or 24 count pattern. Then move into double stick = disarming drills using the same feeding pattern. Then he might move into single = stick techniques building on the same disarms he covered in the double stick techniques and so on. Or he would move into teaching his releasing techniques for when someone grabs your stick and build on that moving = into his favorite take and lock down techniques. GM Ernesto also teaches a more combative approach to knife defense than = the Professor did. The Professor would use a very simple knife drill off of three thrusts (angles 5-7) and have some defenses against them (locks = very similar to his other material), where GM Ernesto would use defenses both inside and outside (on the attacking/feeding arm) for generally all 12 angles of attack. (The same 12 angles of attack that are found in the Professor's Modern Arnis are also used in Kombaton) These defenses = would have a common thread of some techniques running through them but at the = same time be pretty varied as well. GM Ernesto also teaches his freestyle pattern which is similar to the Professor's Tapi Tapi patterns although only at the base level. Both systems used the same numbering patterns (12 angles of attack), = many of the same blocking techniques and disarms, in fact many of the same = striking techniques (abaniko, redondo, etc.), many of the same takedowns and = locking techniques. The both used several of the same double stick flow drills (although GM Ernesto taught more of them), double stick disarms and such. GM Remy generally taught an emphasis on empty hand and single stick techniques, with double stick and knife and espada y daga taught but in = a much smaller block of material and time. GM Ernesto teaches generally double stick, single stick, empty hand, espada y daga, and knife. Pretty much even time is spent between all of the different weapons. Sometimes = he teaches staff and palm stick techniques as well. By studying with both = of them I believe I was able to see a wider view of their arts, however I = know that I've only seen the beginning levels where as the other long time instructors have had a more in-depth view. I hope this helps somewhat. Sorry for the long post Mark L. ------------------------------ From: Bladewerkrr@aol.com Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 09:10:09 EST Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #520 In a message dated 12/5/01 9:50:03 PM Pacific Standard Time, eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << I am now going to use another style of striking using curved strikes". Canete began his attacks again and reported "I then hit him everywhere at will with the end of my stick. He could not defend against it. He kept silent and sat down with his wife. They were a very moody couple then, and did not smile" ________________________________________________________ >> One of the problems of style Vs style is that usually it is something unfamiliar that gets in. If all you train for is linear motions circles will mess you up and vise versa. 2 stories come to mind. Back in the early 60's we were all training in Shotokan, we had only fought Shotokan style fighters. Went to a tournament and met a Korean stylist. Having never seen a 360 degree wheel kick we got our chime rang by them. 6 months later it was a different story as we had adopted to fighting that sort of attack. One night behind a bar on the West Bank (New Orleans not Israel) I saw 2 guys get it on. One was a local semi pro boxer/street fighter who was a pretty tough fellow the other an unknown. As soon as the boxer threw his first jab the other guy rushed in hit him with a shoulder and picked him up slamming him first into a car then to the ground. He turned out to be one of the rookie linebackers for the Saints. And when almost 300 lb. of freight train like football player hits you it is something else. My point is that unless you go beyond "style" and see what others do and work to defend against it you will get caught with your pants down. Sifu Larry Hartsell always advises you to explore every martial art you can be exposed OT simply so if you have to go up against it there will be no surprises. Bear ------------------------------ From: Seraksatu@aol.com Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 10:07:01 EST Subject: eskrima: Silat Serak Camp Selamat all This a short note The VDT Academy at bellflower will have the Silat Serak Training Camp December 14, 15 and 16 Covering Phase 1 thru 3 from the Silat Serak System Also Covering Universal Principles Stick - Blade - Hand to Hand Training for reality versus Training for games. Game sparring VS Reality Silat and FMA attributes For information Write to VDTAcademy@aol.com or call (562) 920-0472 Selamat and regards, Pak Vic ------------------------------ From: Tom Meadows Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 08:24:00 -0800 Subject: eskrima: Balisong openings Greetings, It seems to me that a lot of people are missing the point of multiple balisong openings and the "flashy" stuff. While everbody is watching what the knife is doing, they are missing what the hand carrying that knife is doing. The flashy openings are in fact an admirable way to teach high speed knife manipulation and multiple cutting angles. Look at one of the flashy openings, picture it with the blade always in the open position, and then figure out how to try to enter on it. Good luck... There is a reason these openings have been taught for so long. Perhaps one of GM Marinas' students could get his opinion for us on this subject. Tom Meadows ------------------------------ From: "Marc Denny" Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 11:14:00 -0800 Subject: eskrima: Island Dog in the Cage Woof All: Dunno if this will get posted in time to be useful, but I just found out tonight that Dale "Island Dog" Franks will be NHB fighting tonight (Thursday) For info: www.kagekombat.com 310-290-3306 Woof, Crafty Dog PS: Gathering Report coming , , , soon. ------------------------------ From: Dexter.Labonog@wcom.Com Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 11:07:45 -0800 Subject: eskrima: Reply - Whose Art is Better? Terry, It's humble of you to share these findings. It's also great of you to say to the world that "putting down another martial art starts a downward spiral of bickering and resentment that does nobody any good." Some folks learn this early on and some don't. My martial arts foundation is based on FMA and my primary instructors Leo Giron(Larga Mano), Dentoy Revillar(Serrada), Juan Iliab and Gilbert Tenio(Decuerdas) all expressed that there is no superior martial art and their philosophy behind that was every martial art has a focus of expertise and that expertise can only be executed and applied effectively when the window of opportunity presents itself. The challenge is learning to recognize the window as open/closed, this is where hard practice and training pays off. Personally, A student in any martial art should take the time to learn a complete system in order to establish a foundation, it will make their discovery of adapting existing skills to unfamiliar angles of attacks a much enjoyable, learning experience as well as picking up new information to add to your existing mental arsenal. But then again there are those who thrive in conflict of proving superiority through ignorance. Respectfully, Dexter Labonog Sacramento, CA bahalana.com >>>>>>>> From: Terry Tippie Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 07:30:52 -0800 Subject: eskrima: Whose Art is Better? I don't know if I would call it 'setting up' your students, but I've definitely experimented to see the results of guys training different curricula and then throwing them together to spar. My purpose wasn't to assess which art was better (a teacher who bad mouths other arts IMO sets a bad example) but to see if I can improve how I teach. Findings as follows: Muay Thai vs. FMA (most with 6 months of training): Muay Thai won decisively--while controls were use of empty hands and my own teaching. The point is: Do you draw the conclusion that Muay Thai is better? Nope. What you do is let the Muay Thai guys gloat a bit and in the meantime teach the FMA guys one basic combination to do against Muay Thai: close, tackle & choke. Second time around the FMA guys did much better but still got hit some going in. Then I took the Muay Thai guys down a notch by introducing stick sparring. Expected results confirmed. Then I showed the Muay Thai guys two basic KK combinations. Two months later the FMA guys had an unpleasant surprise coming to them. Results: But folks, putting down another martial art starts a downward spiral of bickering and resentment that does nobody any good. (Actually, the people on the piano forum arguing about which brand of grand piano is better are even worse than you guys!) I submit to you that it is better to develop a healthy respect for where and when an art OR a training method is useful. And start training from there. Besides, the atmosphere in your dojo will be better as a result. >>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------ From: "Jay de Leon" Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 08:01:09 -0800 Subject: eskrima: Flashy Balisong Openings Just a thought on "flashy" balisong openings, and actually flashy anything. And the thought is not original. I remember my GM telling me, and also reading somewhere (could have even been in this Digest), that for the true arnisador, there are two aspects to his arnis--"iyung pang-entablado, at iyung pamatay." literally, for the stage, and for killing. In other words, when he does a demo or a rompilon or carrenza, he embellishes his art to make it more entertaining and impressive, by adding to the degree of difficulty or adding "flashy" moves. When I was doing rompilon, my GM 's words were, "Show your art," meaning put your techniques in the best light, with some flair and showmanship. On the other hand, when the arnisador is in a life or death situation, he reverts to his basic, tried, quick killing techniques. So, other than the entertainment value, why practice flashy moves? The answer is similar to the kenpo or kajukenbo scenario, wherein practitioners defending against a single strike perform a chain or series of striking patterns and get criticized for "overkill." Their answer is no, we do not practice overkill, but overskill. An example in arnis: A rompilon sinawali pattern I teach is doing a redonda sinawali with triple twirls for each count, a little bit fancy, flashy and admittedly impractical for actual combat. But if you can do this pattern decently in rompilon, chances are you can effectively utilize in combat, say, half a redonda pattern with a double twirl on the first strike (speaking from experience, a very effective pattern). As for you "flashy" live blade balisong twirlers and aerialists that just enjoy the adrenaline rush and life on the edge (no pun intended), that's a different story, and I hope your insurance is paid up. Jay de Leon ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 12:57:34 PST Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #521 **************************************** To unsubscribe from the eskrima-digest send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and the Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11!