From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #524 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Sat, 8 Dec 2001 Vol 08 : Num 524 In this issue: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #523 eskrima: Re: Cross Training eskrima: aka "Balisong" eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #523 eskrima: . ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1100 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). http://InayanEskrima.com Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima-Digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bladewerkrr@aol.com Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 12:45:49 EST Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #523 Bumper sticker seen on a pick up: IT IS GODS RESPONSIBILITY TO FORGIVE BIN LADIN IT IS OUR RESPONSIBILITY TO ARRANGE FOR THAT MEETING ASAP UNITED STATES MARINE CORP Got a chuckle out of me, Bear ------------------------------ From: Eagle556@aol.com Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 21:23:23 EST Subject: eskrima: Re: Cross Training <<>> I have been training individuals in various combat skills for the last 20 years. Primarily these students were US and foreign military students but I have also trained a number of individuals in the FMAs. Over the last 20 years of teaching people to survive I have come to a few conclusions that I will share with the board in the hopes of obtaining feedback and perhaps different opinions. My observations primarily come from observing various students in different forms of induced stress. This observation of watching students perform and try to perform under stress has led me to a few basic conclusions. 1. The vast majority of students, whether learning the FMAs or other combat skills, such as shooting, need a very firm grip of the basics. It is this firm understanding of the basics that allows the student to build upon their base. Without this solid base the students entire repertoire of skills normally crumbles under stress. Unfortunately I see quite a few practitioners of the FMAs without a solid base. They have taken a little from here and a little from there and then tried to piecemeal it together into a cohesive whole. Most often this base does not hold up under stress. It holds up as long as the participants adhere to the prearranged drills but once they try to move outside the drill or try to flow they become incapable of dealing with the additional stress of not knowing what their opponent is going to do next. They've allowed function to follow form. A case in point would be the reliance of a number of people on the box drill (flow sparring in a prearranged pattern). Why a prearranged form of "flow" sparring has been allowed to take root I will never know. Two of the purposes of flow sparring is to learn to deal with the unexpected and to learn to flow. None of these learning attributes are enhanced or developed by following preset drills and patterns. Talking to a number of individuals that introduced these prearranged drills in seminars has led me to a couple of conclusions. One individual's purpose of doing this was to introduce to the seminar participants a taste of flow sparring. These prearranged drills were never meant to replace or supersede flow sparring. The individuals that never deviate outside of the patterns have missed the whole purpose of flow sparring. Talking to some of the other individuals that do a lot of these box patterns in the seminars I believe they simply do it as a marketing ploy. They introduce the basic pattern in the first seminar and then in subsequent seminars they introduce additional patterns and hence keep the students coming back for more. Preset drills do not develop flow. When I train a team in CQB (Close Quarter Battle) I first work on their marksmanship, then I work on their basic clearing techniques, i.e., how to deal with rooms, hallways, staircases, etc. I drill and drill these basics into them until they become second nature. Then I set up the kill house and have them go at it. Of course this is a very abbreviated description of what goes on but you will notice that at no time did I tell them, "The next clearing scenario will be the version 12 drill." When they enter the house they have no idea at all what will be inside outside of the fact that there will probably be both good guys and bad guys present. I give them the basics then I make them apply those basics under different circumstances. Preset drills do not help them when they are clearing the house. In fact the exact opposite would happen. If I set up the rooms in a preset manner then this would begin to build into their muscle memory certain responses that would become ingrained. Heaven help them if these responses are ingrained in them when they enter a house under real circumstances. All I could hope for is that the bad guys are using the same preset drills that I had been using. 2. It's hard for most students to operate outside of the box if they don't have a thorough knowledge of what is inside the box and the ability to apply that knowledge. When I was in Special Forces we were expected at times to think outside the box. But this was only possible if we had a very good grasp of what was in the box in the first place. One must not only have the knowledge but must be able to apply that knowledge under different circumstances. I have to agree with Kim Satterfield's comments about some of the practitioners of other arts. I know of a number of individuals in other styles that have my respect for their abilities. And I don't give out that respect lightly. They have my respect primarily on two points, one they have the proper mind set, and two they can apply their techniques under stress. I know of a number of other individuals that can show me 12 different ways to do a technique but under stress they can't apply this knowledge. I appreciate their sharing of this knowledge with me but have come to the conclusion that some people judge a person's ability not by their capability to apply techniques but by how many different drills a person knows. As most people that have met me will tell you I don't know a lot of preset drills. My education is very lacking on that point. 3. Some individuals do have the capability to piecemeal stuff together and are very good at it. The main problem comes when they try to pass on this knowledge. I judge an instructor not by their ability but primarily by their student's abilities. Does the student have a firm understanding of what they are doing? And subsequently is this student able to pass on the art? Those that train with me will tell you that I stress the basics. Some of them get sick and tired of doing the basics over and over. When someone is close to instructor level I judge them on their ability to pass on the art. By the time most reach instructor level they have adapted the art to fit themselves. Much the same as the basic A-Team will develop their own responses and their own ways of doing things. However when they teach they teach the basics not what they have developed for their team and themselves individually. They drill and drill the basics into the students until the students can do them reflexively. I ask the same thing of people that train with me. After time most people develop their own way of doing things and their own unique responses and this is a natural progression. I try not to interfere in this aspect and usually only say something if their individual unique responses don't seem to be working. I don't really care at this stage how they personally respond to aggression but I do care how they pass the art on. I require them to pass on the basics, not their modifications of the basics. Also I warn them to be careful of how much of their personal way of doing things they exhibit in front of the students. As most instructors know the students do watch and observe how we instructors perform our basics. Sorry for the long post but I didn't have anything else to do tonight. :-) Take care, Rob McDonald ------------------------------ From: T David Reyes Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 18:44:47 -0800 Subject: eskrima: aka "Balisong" > > It seems to me that a lot of people are missing the point of multiple > balisong openings and the "flashy" stuff. While everbody is watching > what the knife is doing, they are missing what the hand carrying that > knife is doing. The elder Stockton "Kortadors" also explained that the varied and multitude of openings are contingent upon body position at the time of opening (sitting, lying, falling, etc), method of carry (isabikel, etc), type of draw (gabbut, etc) and the faceing of blade edge (pa-dukol, or pa-dusos) edge out or edge in. The flashier openings done with the weak hand are oft referred to as "karion" and are used to draw, dazzle or avert the opponents eyes away from the "armed" strong hand that will be brought stealthly into play. The "Korta Pluma" or "balisong" as is it is popularly known today is said to be of Portugese orgin (fishing knife), carried by Spanish sailors, and copied by Filipino slaves who worked the Spanish Galleons. Another theory with regard to translation is that the term balisong is a derivative of two words, "balis" meaning to open and expose/reveal a protruding or aggressive object, and "songkete" meaning to stab or the insertion of a sharp object, though most certainly there are many other translations and theories regarding the history, usage and defintion of the Korta Pluma or "Balisong" as so expertly noted by other ED participants. Hayun, David Reyes~ ------------------------------ From: "johnaleen" Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 22:11:20 -0500 Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #523 **** Ms J the opening should be followed by a feint or attack in practice however in real deal defending ones life open and use are the important parts. however should someone jam my opening by closing distance trapping ect I can follow with a different one Pete Sampogna ***** Yes Pete i know, and i agree with you, the point being is that your not going to face that and i would not sit there if i had someone that did not knowing how to apply it, and i am not going to play around if i am facing someone that is seriously going after me with a bali... and its what i am trying to tell my students, there are hundreds of openings and closings but each has there own path and evolution to the knife, for me i use a few but that's after i worked and played with it as a child and to this day they the ones i am use to and use based on my Personal need... do not get me wrong, as i state for me when facing someone with a bali is not about 30 or so openings and closings... the knife is out and you deal with it, a real knife fight dose not evolve time for flashy flips and openings and if your lucky you get out fast.... but as i said the drills and practicing them are very good training methods for many reasons based on each persons needs... Understand, i love this knife and have so from a very young age, but... for practicality and the legalities its not a knife i carry with me.... besides its just another weapon, knifes,,, can be easily replaced with a number of other things that are legal and less threatening to the public eye.... " Weapons 101- Everything is a Weapon..." this has been one of my core concepts and what i have taught and advocated to my students and friends for years... Ms. J..... P.S. just finished the first day of the Sayoc Kali Seminar here and its brilliant i have been after more of this knife system for a number of years, i first touched it in seminar here at one of are Princeton Inosanto Seminars.. Then off and on though the years i have been fortunate to have touched it some more but in very small amounts.... enough though that i am hooked badly and intend to add it to the list of arts i want to continue learning more of and to consume as much as i can of...... Ms. J licks her lips..... i am sucking it up and having way too much fun..... ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 20:51:32 PST Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #524 **************************************** To unsubscribe from the eskrima-digest send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and the Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11!