From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #536 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Sun, 23 Dec 2001 Vol 08 : Num 536 In this issue: eskrima: Legal Morality? eskrima: Merry Christmas eskrima: Injury Litigation eskrima: Tuhon Bill's question eskrima: Ho from OH ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1100 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). http://InayanEskrima.com Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima-Digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "TomMeadows" Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 17:17:20 -0800 Subject: eskrima: Legal Morality? Last issue Mr. Denny said : "Some of the folks at home may understand this to mean that you would sue even in the absence of a belief that the owner had done something wrong/negligent etc. Would you care to flesh out the logic and the morality of this for them?" To which I reply: The logic behind the law is convoluted at best and often bears no relationship to that which is known as "comon sense" . Also the law does not necessarily require any moral justification for its existence, although it may appear so on the surface. I learned all of this having spent two years in court being sued for totalling a doctor's pickup truck with my bicycle. The doctor's insurance company spent $7000 in legal fees in an attempt to recover $2200 in repair costs. State Farm has a policy of suing for damages regardless of their legal costs, and this makes many attorneys unwilling to tackle them. Ultimately I succesfully represented myself in court and they got absolutely nothing. It cost me over 100 hours of my time in the long run. The way all of this relates to Bill McGrath is that a lawsuit only has to have some basis in law to be filed, normal logic or morality notwithstanding. . Certainly an attorney likes to win, but in many cases they are paid (on both sides) independent of the outcome, which is the main reason the system survives as it does. In lot of cases a phone call or letter from an attorney at just the right time can make a big difference, which is why a legal aid program like the one Cindy Denny markets makes so much sense, both economically and practically. And a whole lot of insurance pretty much solves the problem as well . Kevin Black's comment that " I would sue you regardless of the sublease" represents a common legal argument in that business law can be very complex and also that any contract can usually be broken or have loopholes in it, the details of which are usually left to be sorted out by a judge. For those of you who have attended the gatherings you will note Marc's verbally presented legal contract with the players: "No suing for nothing, no how, no way". On the surface it may seem incomplete and missing the "wheretofores" and so on of a normal legal contract, but in fact it covers a surprising amount of ground particularly in the area of establishing the intent of the agreement. Tommy "The Legal Beagle" Meadows P.S. The above name is not to be construed as an official Dog Brother's name and in no way implies any formal or informal association with the Dog Brother's (tm) organization. ------------------------------ From: "Rocky" Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 21:31:51 -0500 Subject: eskrima: Merry Christmas Merry Christmas Everyone, Happy New Year!!! May the holidays find you all safe and happy, Crafty, and all this Muttly crew, Tuhon bill and his clan, Master Tim Hartman and his bunch, the Various Balintawak clans, and Modern Arnis groups and yes even GM Gaet and his group the best to all. From Rocky Pasiwk, and GM Ted Buot. Be Safe Rocky Pasiwk Founder Cuentada De Mano Chief instructor Anciong Bacons Balintawak P.S Hey Kevin I thought you were going to stop by and train a little bit. ------------------------------ From: "Kevin Black" Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 15:31:37 Subject: eskrima: Injury Litigation Mr. Denny asked - "Your candor is appreciated. Some of the folks at home may understand this to mean that you would sue even in the absence of a belief that the owner had done something wrong/negligent etc. Would you care to flesh out the logic and the morality of this for them?" First, the logic. Generally, an injury at a martial arts school/tournament presents a claim of negligent supervision. Basically, the instructor, either through lack of attention or a conscious decision, allows dangerous contact, submissions, etc. The actual "fault" from a plaintiff's POV lies with the instructor. If that instructor is an employee of a school owner, acting with that owner's knowledge and approval, we have "vicarious liability" and the owner will be sued just as his employee. The actual instructor will probably be let out at some point, as he has no insurance, and generally, no money to get. A school owner may be held liable if he "knew or should have known" of the danger to students. However, in Mr. McGrath's case, no jury will believe that a world-reknowned martial artist didn't understand what was taking place in his own school. Either way, the owner will be sued, and a jury would have to decide his involvement. As a practical matter, his insurance will generally pay a portion of the amount demanded, directly proportional to the amount of proof against the owner, prior to trial. As for morality, I'm sure you understand the difference between morality and legal ethics, but I'll go over some for everyone who is getting ready to visit me with sticks and knives right now... As attorneys, we take an oath to zealously represent our clients. It is, therefore, my job to advocate for my client regardless of my personal feelings on the issue. Generally, my client's interest is $$$, without regard to who actually pays. Morality is replaced by ethics at work. I am sworn to do everything within the rules of ethics to benefit my client. I cannot lie or cheat for him, as those are unethical, but if I fail to do anything that is ethical, because of my own morals, then I have failed my obligation to represent him in the best possible fashion. I personally recognize that there is a likelihood of injury in martial arts. Knowing that, I choose to train because I enjoy it, and would never sue my teacher for a training injury. Furthermore, I do not believe that, in the above example, Tuhon Bill has done anything wrong, especially in a "black belt" sparring class, where every student knows the risks. BUT, those are the arguments that a defense attorney will raise. A good friend of mine often says, there are always 3 sides to a story, yours, mine & the truth. Hopefully, if both sides pull as hard as possible for their version (within the rules), the jury sees the truth in the middle. If one side has no one pulling for them, you can't arrive at an accurate picture. That's our system, and one reason why there are so many dissatisfied lawyers. Tough job. If I'm not too far off topic, I'd be interested to hear Crafty's take on tort reform. Sorry it's so loooong! Kevin Black shillelagh2@hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: "BILL MCGRATH" Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 21:10:14 -0500 Subject: eskrima: Tuhon Bill's question I asked the question about private sparring clubs because I get asked variations on it from time to time and didn't really know how to answer it properly. I have had several school owners tell me they are concerned their insurance company would have a coronary if they tried to include full contact weapons sparring at their schools. When sparring is done, but it is held outside of class hours, at informal gatherings in parks or backyards among the higher ranks on their own initiative. Another school owner told me his insurance company will allow weapons sparring, but he has to do it infrequently because he has to insure it as a tournament and that means an additional cost. The input from Rocky, Crafty and Kevin have been very helpful, so I am going to ask a few more questions. 1. Will a sub S corp. protect a sole proprietor? 2. Do any school owners on the list use an insurance company that allows full contact weapons sparring without treating it like a tournament and charging an extra fee? 3. With all the flack we in the martial arts get from insurance companies, how the heck do boxing gyms get insurance? Thanks, Tuhon Bill McGrath Visit the PTI web site at: http://www.pekiti-tirsia.com/index.html ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 13:43:02 PST Subject: eskrima: Ho from OH HoHoHo from Ohio. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #536 **************************************** To unsubscribe from the eskrima-digest send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and the Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11!