From: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: eskrima-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #537 Reply-To: eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: eskrima-digest-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest Mon, 24 Dec 2001 Vol 08 : Num 537 In this issue: eskrima: Happy Holiday eskrima: re: Turon Bill's question eskrima: Legal Morality=Oxymoron eskrima: legal stuff NEC eskrima: Morality versus Legal Ethics eskrima: Happy Holidays from ISI eskrima: Virus Warning!!! eskrima: . ========================================================================== Eskrima-Digest, serving the Internet since June 1994. 1100 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). http://InayanEskrima.com Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe eskrima-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use eskrima@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima-Digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 16:42:04 EST Subject: eskrima: Happy Holiday From Garimot Family Happy, holiday to all, and thanks, to you Rocky, may you have a healthy new year too. Maligayang Pasko at masaganang Bagong Taon 2002 sa lahat, Merry Christmas and properous New Year 2002 to all. Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Laguna Arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research Center USA ------------------------------ From: "Gerald Boggs" Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 05:23:30 -0500 Subject: eskrima: re: Turon Bill's question Please, those of you in the know, please respond. I opened a Grappling class. To protect myself, my company became a LLC. I'd like to add contact with limited protection and stick sparring but my landlord is hesitating on agreeing because of the liability issue. ------------------------------ From: "Marc Denny" Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 14:28:26 -0800 Subject: eskrima: Legal Morality=Oxymoron Woof All: Thanks to Tommy the Legal Beagle for his post. > I learned all of this having spent two years in court being sued for > totalling a doctor's pickup truck with my bicycle. The doctor's insurance > company spent $7000 in legal fees in an attempt to recover $2200 in repair > costs. State Farm has a policy of suing for damages regardless of their > legal costs, and this makes many attorneys unwilling to tackle them. Thus the policy is logical in a macro sense although not necessarily in a particular case. > In lot of cases a phone call or letter from an attorney at just the right > time can make a big difference, which is why a legal aid program like the > one Cindy Denny markets makes so much sense, both economically and > practically. Tail wags for the plug Tom. To be precise "legal aid program" sounds something like a government program, and what Cindy offers is legal insurance. The company is called "Pre-Paid Legal" and has an excellent track record for decades and is publicly traded-- on the NYSE itself I believe. (under the symbol PPD if you wish to look it up) It has been written up quite favorably by Fortune, Business Week and other prestigious business publications. We have car insurance, health insurance, home/renter insurance, etc. With the US legal system being as it is, legal insurance for $16 a month (or $26 for the even higher levels of coverage) this thing is a real good deal. Again, contact Cindy at Prettykitty@dogbrothers.com > And a whole lot of insurance pretty much solves the problem as well . Of course, the issue is price! What would it cost to get a Gathering covered?!? Also, note that the intentional infliction of harm is usually not covered by insurance. This does present a problem for martial arts programs , , , > For those of you who have attended the gatherings you will note Marc's > verbally presented legal contract with the players: "No suing for nothing, > no how, no way". On the surface it may seem incomplete and missing the > "wheretofores" and so on of a normal legal contract, but in fact it covers a > surprising amount of ground particularly in the area of establishing the > intent of the agreement. Important detail: It is not oral. The video of the contract is the "writing". Each and every fighter looks into the camera and gives his name and age. "We are a corporation. No suing no one for no reason for nothing no how no way. Only you are responsible for you. Protect yourself at all times." > Tommy "The Legal Beagle" Meadows > > > P.S. The above name is not to be construed as an official Dog Brother's > name and in no way implies any formal or informal association with the Dog > Brother's (tm) organization. However Tom is our good friend :-) > From: "Kevin Black" > Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 15:31:37 > Subject: eskrima: Injury Litigation I caught a flu and am drooling snot as I type and my mental engine is running out of gas. Thanks to Kevin for his post, put I will have to come back to this later. >> > From: "BILL MCGRATH" > Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 21:10:14 -0500 > Subject: eskrima: Tuhon Bill's question > > 1. Will a sub S corp. protect a sole proprietor? Don't rely on this or sue me Bill! My understanding is that Subchapter S of the IRC (Internal Revenue Code) allows for a certain type of corporation which does not pay corporate tax as long as profit flows through to the owners and is taxed on them. In other words, it allows the owners of the corporation to avoid (NOT evade!) paying taxes twice (as a corporation and and individuals receiving dividends) and pay only as individuals. As far as it being a legal person it is, just like any other corporation and as such provide legal protection against being sued personally. Your accountant should be able to help you understand whether it adds up for you from a tax perspective. As far as the merits of incorporating, it is a key part of the strategy I follow with Dog Brothers, DBMA, DBMAA et al . I always operate as DBIMA -- Dog Brothers INCORPORATED Martial Arts. To receive the legal protection of a corporation, you must act like one. Separate bank accounts, NO MIXING CORP $ AND YOURS, file the reports required, have a federal taxpayer number , PAY THE TAXES, etc. That sort of thing. Also CA law is very good about enforcing liability waivers when it comes to dangerous activities, but other states vary greatly. Again, do not rely, verify! > 2. Do any school owners on the list use an insurance company that allows > full contact weapons sparring without treating it like a tournament and > charging an extra fee? > 3. With all the flack we in the martial arts get from insurance companies, > how the heck do > boxing gyms get insurance? They get cousin Vinny to break the kneecaps of those who sue? > Thanks, > Tuhon Bill McGrath > Visit the PTI web site at: http://www.pekiti-tirsia.com/index.html De nada Crafty Dog ------------------------------ From: "q" Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 15:02:10 -0800 Subject: eskrima: legal stuff NEC 1. Will a sub S corp. protect a sole proprietor? 2. Do any school owners on the list use an insurance company that allows full contact weapons sparring without treating it like a tournament and charging an extra fee? 3. With all the flack we in the martial arts get from insurance companies, how the heck do boxing gyms get insurance? I'm no Lawyer but a quasi medical person and we are used to watching our backs! From a layperson's point of view this whole issue is just like a martial arts confrontation. You see if you look unbeatable people will not test you out. If someone does test you out then you have to decide whether to fish or cut bait. Lawyers will not sue and win a judgement against a broke person. If you are a broke person then who cares if they win unless you really think the lotto is averaged into your yearly income. If you are not broke then you have to make yourself reasonably judgement proof by securing assets just like you make sure your knife is sharp and your shoe laces are tied tight. You can do some of these things with off shore (non -tax avoidence) accounts where you don't try to hide money but are able to move things around so it is harder for legal action to freeze accounts and gain discovery and attach assets. Some assets in retirement accounts are judgement proof. That is how O.J. can still play golf. There are legal enities like the FLP (family limited partnership) and the LLC (limited liability company) which can through unique legal rules, for example in the FLP, make the person with the most legal exposure look like a porcupine such that the general partner of such an enity can actually assign his debts to a person who wins a judgement against him. How would you like to have the guy who sues you and win not only get no money from you but also pay your IRS tax bill? Under less and less conditions the typical subchapter S corp offers less and less protection and in certain profesions such as dentistry offer no protection and even the tax breaks are gone. That is why you see only old dentists with INC. after their names mostly. Also you have to factor your area. Boxing gyms in blue collar areas attract people who don't even have cell phones and never have seen a laywer. White collar guys like me not only have cell phones but even a person like me with minimum legal exposure to problems has two lawyers on speed dial just in case I can't get a hold of one when I need him. We go to school and have friends who are lawyers. Think carefully once you decide to make MA your business. Once you take the first dollar you are a business and therefore you need to act like one. Ignorance of the law is no excuse for not following it or having lawyers on your side who know how to protect you from it. If you engage in a business contract with a subordinate student you are guilty until you pay to prove you inocent. While that is not the spirit of the law it is the reality when you are paying to dig your self out of a hole regardless of whether you are right or wrong. If you enter into a business contract with another business there are no protections and any dispute comes down to who has the better lawyer. Finally, when all else fails and you don't know what to do at least practice your craft within the standard for your industry. If everyone else practices cops and robbers with paint balls and you decide to be the only guy in California using real bullets so you can advertise the fact and attract players you cannot get enough new clients to offset the new risks you are taking on. Disclaimer: This is just my non-legal opinion. Opinions are like ass-holes, everyone has one. Regards, Carlton H. Fung, D.D.S. Torrance, Ca. ------------------------------ From: "Marc Denny" Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 21:06:16 -0800 Subject: eskrima: Morality versus Legal Ethics Woof All: First, my thanks to Kevin for the coherent answer to my question describing the way things are. > From: "Kevin Black" > Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 15:31:37 > Subject: eskrima: Injury Litigation > > Mr. Denny asked: > > "Your candor is appreciated. > > Some of the folks at home may understand this to mean that you would sue > even in the absence of a belief that the owner had done something > wrong/negligent etc. Would you care to flesh out the logic and the morality > of this for them?" , , , > As for morality, I'm sure you understand the difference between morality and > legal ethics, but I'll go over some for everyone who is getting ready to > visit me with sticks and knives right now... As attorneys, we take an oath > to zealously represent our clients. It is, therefore, my job to advocate > for my client regardless of my personal feelings on the issue. Generally, > my client's interest is $$$, without regard to who actually pays. Morality > is replaced by ethics at work. I am sworn to do everything within the rules > of ethics to benefit my client. I cannot lie or cheat for him, as those are > unethical, but if I fail to do anything that is ethical, because of my own > morals, then I have failed my obligation to represent him in the best > possible fashion. Thus the question arises as to the karmic consequences of "zealously" representing what one believes to be morally wrong. The law "ethically" allows the lawyer to take the case that his own morals reject. Is it fair to say in such a case he sells his morals for money? In answering this question, it is necessary to distinguish a case where the facts remain to be proven, and one where the lawyer believes the claim to be wrong in its moral basis. , , , > A good friend of mine often says, there are always 3 sides to a story, > yours, mine & the truth. Hopefully, if both sides pull as hard as possible > for their version (within the rules), the jury sees the truth in the middle. As noted, my question is not aimed at questions of fact, but rather where the attorney does not believe in the moral values of the claim itself. > If one side has no one pulling for them, you can't arrive at an accurate > picture. That's our system, and one reason why there are so many > dissatisfied lawyers. Tough job. Agreed. And folks, please understand I'm not taking a crack at Kevin here-- he has merely described the way it is-- I'm asking a philosophical question. > If I'm not too far off topic, I'd be interested to hear Crafty's take on > tort reform. Sorry it's so loooong! To be continued. :-) Crafty Dog ------------------------------ From: Steve Klement Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 14:26:50 -0500 Subject: eskrima: Happy Holidays from ISI The Inayan Brotherhood of Eskrima would like to take this opportunity to send everyone our best wishes for a wonderful holiday season and a prosperous New Year! We would also like to thank all the dedicated Inayan Systems International and Inayan Federation of Eskrima Instructors and students that have made the organization as strong as it is after just one year (to the day!). If you are not a member of the ISI or IFE but you signed the Guestbook on the official ISI Web Site, than please accept our humble thanks for showing your public support as you have. We appreciate your efforts so very much and we certainly look forward to working with you in the future if it is possible. Because of the talent, dedication and support from all of you, Mangisursuro Mike Inay's most profound wish (to spread the art of Inayan Eskrima) is coming true now more than ever. One of the best tools to help spread the word for Inayan Eskrima or even Eskrima in general has been this Eskrima Digest. No words could ever thank Mr. Ray Terry enough for the years of time and dedication he has committed to have the list thrive as it has. Ray, you have helped Inayan Eskrima and the ISI more than we could ever repay - thank you so much sir! We hope all of you are able to spend time with the people that matter most in your lives this holiday. Wishing you a beautiful holiday and a New Year of Peace and Happiness... With warmest regards from the entire IBE Council of Inayan Guros, - -- Emanuel Hart Jeff Elliott Steve Klement Cory Hanosh Jon Ward - -- www.inayaneskrima.com info@inayaneskrima.com Inayan Systems International ------------------------------ From: "BILL MCGRATH" Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 14:15:38 -0500 Subject: eskrima: Virus Warning!!! If you receive an email from me (either as "Bill McGrath", William McGrath", Tuhon Bill" or "wmggr212) with the subject names of "SOF 7-15-01" or "Balcom 10-20-00" or "Pekiti-Tirsia Las Vegas" DO NOT OPEN THEM. I picked up the virus that uses a file name from your documents section to cover the virus and then sends the virus out to everyone on your address list. Delete any message from me for the next two days without opening it. Thanks, Bill McGrath Visit the PTI web site at: http://www.pekiti-tirsia.com/index.html ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 12:38:08 PST Subject: eskrima: . ------------------------------ End of Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V8 #537 **************************************** To unsubscribe from the eskrima-digest send the command: unsubscribe eskrima-digest -or- unsubscribe eskrima-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and the Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11!