To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sender: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net List-Help: List-Post: X-Subscribed-Address: rterry@idiom.com List-Subscribe: List-Id: Inayan Eskrima / FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Unsubscribe: Status: OR Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<------------ The Eskrima Digest mailing list ------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. 1100 members strong! Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). http://InayanEskrima.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima-Digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Joe Simonet (Todd Ellner) 2. Invalid Certificate? (Mike Casto) 3. Bisio seminar update (Bill McG) 4. Reality in training (TomMeadows) 5. Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 9 #23 - 5 msgs (Bladewerkrr@aol.com) 6. If you earned it, it is yours (Seraksatu@aol.com) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Todd Ellner" To: Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 23:55:31 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] Joe Simonet Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Look, guys, I already said that Joe Simonet has done a lot of martial arts. And he's big and strong. He's really good at what he does. But his "Serak Concepts" tape is garbage as far as Serak is concerned. Someone said they were excellent quality. No doubt. The camera was in focus in almost every frame. Anyone could see that Paladin Press' professional standards of layout, organization and design were right there on the screen. The content was bad by the generally accepted standards of Pencak Silat Serak. I can dig up my notes and print excerpts from them if you want. What mistakes are you most interested in? The (beginner's) problems with his form? His misunderstanding of basics? His blindness to principles and applications that second year student would probably understand? Handwork? Footwork? Langkas? Djurus? Poor appreciation of distance? Bad balance and body mechanics? He's putting out misunderstanding and misinformation on all of them. And that's just the empty hand stuff. He's never studied Serak. He gets it wrong. And if he was careful to avoid actually telling lies he dissembled and shaded the truth enough as makes no difference. Yeah, he's studied Tongkat. Got a Black Belt in it. He deserves credit for the time and effort. When I called Pak Victor to ask do some fact checking he insisted that Joe Simonet's Tongkat skill and understanding were absolutely legitimate. Even if he (Victor de Thoaurs) was really irked with him. But Tongkat isn't Serak. It's derived from it. It gives you a good base if you want to study the parent art later. But if my tiny exposure to it is any indication it bears about the same relation to Serak as does, say Bukti Negara. If you go through one of the carrier systems and then learn the parent art you spend a lot of time going "Oh! So THAT'S what it was about!" Let's take a Judo analogy. A Black Belt in Judo will find a lot in Brazilian Ju Jutsu that looks and feels awfully familiar. They share a common root. Lots of Judo players find that BJJ is a good fit and complement to what they've done. A Judo Black Belt who saw a BJJ tape and came out with his own "Gracie Ju Jutsu Concepts" tape and then started calling his stuff "Modern Brazilian Ju Jutsu" would be (rightly) laughed at. Mike Janich's interest in this seems to be to stir up some controversy so that he can sell tapes. Fair enough. It's good to know where a man stands on these things. His opinions on what constitutes "the real deal" in something he's never studied let alone mastered are as meaningful as mine would be at a piano competition; I couldn't carry a tune if it had handles. A couple people have leapt to Addy Hernandez's defense. She needs none. It's obvious from watching her move that she's a hell of a martial artist. But look at the tape. We see a couple hours of a larger, stronger person tossing around a smaller weaker one who has less experience. It doesn't give the viewer any extra confidence in the material. Most of us would be more impressed if we someone make the stuff work on a subject who has more strength, more mass, and more reach. Before anyone else says it I'll do the full disclosure thing. I studied Bukti Negara with Stevan Plinck and got as far as Guru Muda certification before he stopped teaching it. Now I'm in his Serak class. It will be years before my skills are up to anything Guru standards. Regards, Todd --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 06:31:55 -0600 From: Mike Casto To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Invalid Certificate? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net << Hi all, A question to everyone. What is the purpose of a time limit on a certificate? How does a certificate become invalid? (* Assuming that a certificate was issued *) For if you learn something, do you not make it yours? Out of respect to ao an instructor you might not teach a technique or teach at all, but if you have been taught something and recognized for it, how can it be invalid due to time? Just curious, and thanks >> You're absolutely correct. Whether the piece of paper is "valid" or "invalid" is irrelevant to the knowledge of the person. The problem, as it relates to the topic at hand, isn't one of "invalid" it's one of "misrepresntation." The certificate in question is valid ... but it is not a certificate of knowledge in Serak. If you pause the video and step through the zoom out, you can catch the small print on the top of the certificate. It's hard on the eyes, but possible to read that "This is to certify that Joseph Simonet ... the rank of Guru Dua Hitam and is fully qualified to ... Tongkat Serak ..." (the ... represent sections that I can't make out quite make out). "Tongkat" is not "Serak" ... it is a derivative of Serak. As Mike Roberto pointed out, if Simonet had called it "Tongkat Concepts" no one would have had a problem with it. His certification and qualifications in Tongkat are completely valid ... but he has neither in Serak. Mike --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 12:01:36 -0500 From: Bill McG To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Bisio seminar update Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net The correct dates for Tom Bisio's upcoming seminars are: Feb. 11, 18, 25 and March 4, 11, 18 Regards, Tuhon Bill McGrath --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "TomMeadows" To: Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 08:31:08 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] Reality in training Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Greetings, Recently Jeff Inman wrote: "My experience with adrenalinized opponents has taught me that they don't act at all like they are supposed to. They don't bend over when their ribs are broken, for example.They don't stop fighting when the frikking wind is knocked out of them, until 10 or 15 seconds later when their body runs out of anaerobic juice. They don't do any of the things that training partners do, because they aren't training! Doesn't it bug you to see techniques presented that seem to depend on an opponent that is pliable and ready to "respond" by bending over violently, or drawing back in surprise at each strike" Valid points, but I want to expound on a couple of areas. The only way to obtain a genuine physical response to a punch in the face is to hit the person as hard as you can in the face and see what they do. Having done that a time or two, I have learned that they don't respond quite like they do in a drill, but there are two thing they do in both drills and fighting: They move their head in response to the attack, and after contact their body moves, to some degree. The same applies to Dog Bros. in that if you are in range, and swing a stick at Professor Denny's head, he will move his head out of the way. At the beginning levels of training, these movements are exaggerated to help your partner learn basic positioning. As your experience increases, you make your partner work harder and harder, until he then can work with a reaction that is both subtler and much closer to the real thing. This is far more dangerous than over exaggerated training drill and it takes time and experience to learn this. I am sure Dog Bros. has drills that are far more real than most, but I also know that none of the Dog Bros would ever walk out of a siniwalli drill taught by Guro Dan, because " it is not real enough". Different types of training teach different things, and it would be real different world in the martial arts if the Dog Brothers was never created. Tom Meadows --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Bladewerkrr@aol.com Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 13:32:55 EST To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 9 #23 - 5 msgs Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 1/18/02 7:21:40 PM Pacific Standard Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: << Addy Hernandez is fit, appropriately dressed, and technically qualified. Anybody that can't over her gender or height in the tapes is a wee bit of an undeveloped human being and not an ideal marketing target in any event. >> Personally, I am a bit tired of all this gender BS. My late teacher, Terry Gibson, used his wife, Cathy as his training partner on many of his videos. I have been to seminars with Guru Dan and no one got huffy when he used Paula I. to demonstrate on. Both are tough knowledgeable people, that have been training many years, should they take a back seat because they are women, or small in stature? If that isn't the most sexist, chauvinistic view there is, please tell me of it. Mr. Simonet introduces Ms. Hernandez as his protigi, should he have skipped over her to use some 250 LB green belt? Jerry Poteet, in his JKD series uses his a lady that was his protigie as a demo partner, no one hit the ceiling about that. I think that had any of these women been forced and coerced into participation in these tapes it would have surfaced by now. I have not the expertise to comment on Mr. Simonets videos as to their Silat content, I leave that to experts in Silat. It does seem to me that there is a certain bias toward Mr. Simonet, I have heard that he should have stuck to Kenpo, something he was good at, yet when his Kenpo videos came out his detractors were silent on them. As I said the content is neither here nor there with me as I am not qualified to judge it. the video was shot well, with multiple angles and was explained pretty thoroughly, something I would like to see a few more "real experts" mimic. But please get off the "poor thrown around little lady" thread. It is demeaning both to Ms. Hernandez and all female martial artists. Bear --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Seraksatu@aol.com Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 14:31:38 EST To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] If you earned it, it is yours Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Selamat mr. Rich A certificate never becomes Invalid at the VDT Academy Even if there is or was a disagreement and you split apart. The question is, if one certificate was never given let say..... a second degree Silat Serak Certificate in les then two months? Now time does make a difference. a person does claim he has, certainly not given by me. Time and disengaging has nothing to do with the knowledge you have learned. It becomes yours. I have accredited many Tongkat Certificates of folks that earned ranks in Silat Tongkat from my Tongkat Serak Organization and only Guru Dan Inosanto, Kees Boering in Pentjak Silat Serak. Several Pembantu Gurus or Assistant Instructors. And they shall be valid till the person close their eyes. Guru Dan Inosanto will have earned a full Guru Ship or Guru Tuhan in Pentjak Silat Serak from the VDT Academy. Guru Dan Works hard on what he earned He is a Teacher of Teachers, and a true student of Students. Let say Sifu/Guru Joe Simonet earned 2nd Degree in Pencak Silat Tongkat from the Silat Tongkat and Serak Club, you bet. That will stand in time. Good martial skills, good teacher in his own rights. Sifu Joe is no longer affiliated with myself, but his certificate and students he produce in Pentjak Silat TONGKAT I will always recorgnize, for they are valid, and time can not erase that, why, for he earned that. As it is also, He earned nothing in the system of Silat Serak, and that will also stand. Many at the present are working toward the full Guru and by the end of 2002 we should have over 8 Silat Serak Gurus graduate. You learn it, it is yours Problem is, if you claim to know and then then you do not tsk..... tsk.... to the person. The late Proffesor Remy Perasas, excellent Great Martial Arts ICON in Eskrima, HE EARNED and knew the system he learned in and out and was ahead of his time. The word is Earned and he Knew, and then he created his own excellent Modern Escrima. And what is in a name, Prof. Remy earned that status by hard and long studies. Prof. Remy has many great followers who are Instructors under him. Earned Ranks. How would they feel if they see a young beginner in their system call it, Ultra Modern Escrima, ah yes, what is in a name anyway person who claim Modern Pentjak Silat Serak, if the person has truly studied should he not be able to teach the very basic and the very 1st&second Phase of the system of serak would you not think? That would be lets say high with belt level in Serak. The curriculem is in the open written in the new book Serak the Tsunami. So absolutly, that is what the system of serak dictates anyway, you study it and you know it, make it yours, and earned certifcates can stand the test of time. Person who claim to know the system of Serak and not know it can only deceive themselves and others who they train. But then again, why not only in America What is in a name anyway right. Does it matter that if the person disgraces the founder by calling it a slithering snake without shoes, or trample on the system from the late Sifu Bruce Lee, and show how this person with his style will demolish a JKD person? Who cares right? only in America, What is in a name, and what is the big deal right.? And if you yourself study eskrima or silat or whatever it is and study for let say 20 years, and have a junior to you, who in time and hours only have studied 1 month and claims a second degree. How does your ranking now stack if you have also a second degree. That is Okay with you right? And the person makes tapes to sell is also not the point, this is america and why not. Never a question if one had the ability to make great videos or have the ability to fight. The issue is, is it valid if a certificate was realy issued or not And if earned, to make it your own, you bet, make it your own and spread what you learned, or better yet make and design your own system The system of Pentjak Serak encourages that, crosstrain and develop and it is progressive not stagnent. Would realy be nice to know a bit more then the basic Phase of Serak or what ever art a person may practice in doing so, for a person own sake if nothing else Only in America, and what is in a name anyway, the sun shines on any one after all. Have peace Pak Vic << Message: 1 Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 21:21:18 -0800 (PST) From: rich parsons To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 9 #24 - 2 msgs Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi all, A question to everyone. What is the purpose of a time limit on a certificate? How does a certificate become invalid? (* Assuming that a certificate was issued *) For if you learn something, do you not make it yours? Out of respect to ao an instructor you might not teach a technique or teach at all, but if you have been taught something and recognized for it, how can it be invalid due to time? Just curious, and thanks Rich --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and the Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of Eskrima Digest