To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sender: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net List-Help: List-Post: X-Subscribed-Address: rterry@idiom.com List-Subscribe: List-Id: Inayan Eskrima / FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Unsubscribe: Status: OR Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<------------- The Eskrima Digest mailing list ------------->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. 1100 members strong! Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). http://InayanEskrima.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima-Digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Certification stuff (Marc Denny) 2. Re: Seminar in Frederick, Md (Pngreiff@aol.com) 3. Tony Cecchine (Stephen Lamade) 4. Well Behaved Women ..... (Patrick Davies) 5. Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 9 #37 - 5 msgs (Beungood@aol.com) 6. Re: Silat tapes (AnimalMac@aol.com) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Marc Denny" To: Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 16:19:53 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] Certification stuff Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Woof All: I figure that a response like Jay's to my post on DBMA's approach to maintaining certifications means that perhaps I need to flesh things out a bit more. I meant to post this sooner, but the flu has been having its way in the Denny household Jay wrote: > I understand that we all tend to evolve after achieving advanced rank in the martial arts, but I don't know about expiring a rank certificate with a student because someone: > a. gets out of shape > b. doesn't continue research under you > c. doesn't continue research at all (besides, let's say, teaching) > d. moves on > > When we promote students in the FMA, it is often called "graduating" a student. My bachelor's degree doesn't have an expiration date on >it; if it did, that would mean I wouldn't be able to get a new job in 10 years. Many manong I've spoken to draw a difference between one who >has achieved an "expert" status and "teaching credentials". You can't take away someone's knowledge and ability to teach others. >People get sick, get old, pursue other goals, and who am I to say that your knowledge is invalid. Re-certifying seems to be more of a >commercial dojo practice than that of an FMA. > When certificates expire, does that mean one can no longer say that he is a certified Guro in ___ system? Should he just say "I was once certified in ___ system"? For those of you who belong to systems that re-certify, do you have to pay for them? > > I understand from a family friend that there is now a disagreement between Remy Presas's Filipino students who trained in the 70s before he came to the US and the Western world students who hold higher ranks that didn't exist in the 70s. Can anyone elaborate? > > Jay ENDQUOTE OK, lets look at what I said: QUOTE Certification renewal/expiration: My thought here is that both approaches can be valid. It can be like a diploma, or it can be like a license. With DBMA certifications need to be renewed, just like my certification under Guro I. There are three basic reasons for this. One is character. I want Dog Brothers Martial Arts to be known for the same kind of character and integrity as the Dog Brothers and want to have a way to graciously ease out someone whose trajectory in these areas I am not comfortable with. The second is that the system is dynamic. Someone who stopped training in DBMA 5 years ago is simply not current and I would not want the system to be represented by them. If I am comfortable with the person, then I might say "certified on material through date X, or "inactive status", but I don't want to accumulate a lot of dead wood. DBMA certification is not for people looking to accumulate certs. It is an ongoing commitment. The third is that sometimes people lose it. They get out of shape, they stop training, etc. Again, I do not want the DBMA flag to be carried by such people. END QUOTE COMMENTS: I am at a disadvantage to Jay here. I am glad he is happy with his approach, but clearly he is unhappy with my mine. ;-) It is unfortunate, for there may be more agreement between us than he realizes. He writes "You can't take away someone's knowledge and ability to teach others." I agree. There is no claim to stop the person from following his path. He writes "People get sick, get old, pursue other goals, and who am I to say that your (sic) knowledge is invalid?" Here we come to the crux of it. I am the founder and head instructor of Dog Brothers Martial Arts-- that's who I am. And if someone wants to use the name DBMA, I get to say what the standard is. I get to say whether the certification is current, is limited to representing material through a certain date, is inactive, or is expired/terminated. Jay asks "When certificates expire, does that mean one can no longer say that he is a certified Guro in (DBMA)?" Exactly. Jay asks "Should he just say "I was once certified in (DBMA)?" Sounds reasonable to me-- and if he uses DBMA material in his subsequent teaching he should identify it as such. Jay asks "(D)o you have to pay for DBMA (re-certification)?" There is no fee for certification OR for renewal. One trains and is certified according to how I see the results. Jay comments "Re-certifying seems to be more of a commercial dojo practice than that of an FMA." I confess that this communicates as a bit of a crack here, but since he seems to be assuming that I am charging for rank and in fact I am not, no rejoinder is necessary. A word here about the standards. I have been at Real Contact Stickfighting since the mid-80s. Eric, Arlan and I founded the Dog Brothers in 1989 (or was in '88?). I set up DBIMA (the "I" stands for "Incorporated") about a year before that for reasons of legal liability and to make medical insurance deductible. The "Dog Brothers Real Contact Stickfighting" videos came out in the fall of 1993. And Dog Brothers Martial Arts began, if one were to put a date on it, when Eric and I did our first seminar together for Alvis in Texas. (It must have been late '93? early '94?-- my knee brace was still on), Since then, certifications have been very few and far between. I have yet to certify ANYONE as Guro, although three people are getting close. (This of course does not count Sled Dog Philip or Salty Dog Arlan whose ranking is not so much a certification by me as a recognition of what they bring to the Dog Brothers and to Dog Brothers Martial Arts.) The standards are high and requiring maintenance of one's certification helps me keep it that way. The adventure continues , , , Woof, Guro Crafty Founder/Head Instructor Dog Brothers Martial Arts --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Pngreiff@aol.com Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 08:45:31 EST To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Seminar in Frederick, Md Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Introduction to Weapons Fighting and Defense When: Saturday February 16, 2002 From 10:00 am to 4:30 pm Where: Central Maryland Martial Arts Frederick, MD Cost: $45.00 Criminals attack only when they have an advantage. The element of surprise, superior numbers, weapons and a strong desire to impose their will upon you are their advantages. Using the stick and knife as a basis, Dr. David Wink will teach the basics of weapons strategy and tactics. He will teach the strengths and weaknesses of various weapons and how to take advantage of each, both offensively and defensively. He will teach how these strategies and tactics translate to empty hands. He will also teach how to use footwork to control range and positioning, which is a key element of fighting, especially when fighting with weapons. David Wink was a student of Pekiti-tirsia under Grand Tuhon Leo T. Gaje and Pentjak Silat under Eddie Jafri. Since then, he has honed his fighting skills with more than 20 years of full-contact fighting. He believes that full-contact fighting is essential to validating the strategies and tactics of the fighting arts and developing the ability to apply them, so he continues the tradition of using full-contact fighting as a laboratory through the Full-Contact Martial Arts Association. For more information or to pre-register, please contact David Fulton at dhfulton@prodigy.net. --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Stephen Lamade" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 15:26:41 Subject: [Eskrima] Tony Cecchine Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I was upset to learn that Tony Cecchine is very ill. Although I have never met him personally, several of my friends and training partners have, and his catch wrestling art has been very influential in the continuing development of Estacada-Kajukenbo. By all accounts, Tony is an outstanding indvidual and martial artist. Best, Steve Lamade San Miguel Eskrima _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Patrick Davies To: "'eskrima@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 16:16:42 -0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Well Behaved Women ..... Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Bear wrote: <<<" Well Behaved Women Seldom Make History">>> I really have to disagree with you here. Well behaved, courteous people of both sexes usually achieve much more than ill behaved ones. A few examples would be: Jackie Kennedy Onasis, Margaret Thatcher, Madeline Allbright. All very powerful women who commanded the respect of everyone, even those that didn't care for them personally. They were also cultured, courteous, well mannered individuals. I believe that they have all made history History is funny as everyone only sees one view on it. I currently live in Scotland where as a nation no one had respect for Thatcher and the vast majority of UK working class people suffered thanks to her. I wont say any more but didn't want people to think this is a common conception as its not. Sort of destroys the point you were trying to make by adding a tyrant. Best stick to simpler examples to make the point that in itself I accept! Keep the politics out though please. Pat Davies --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Beungood@aol.com Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 14:50:01 EST To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 9 #37 - 5 msgs Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 1/27/02 5:14:45 AM Eastern Standard Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > Regarding how Silat "looks and works" remember when you were a kid and you > walked behind your friend and just at the right time you kicked his foot > toward and into his other foot as he stepped and he fell into a pile as his > books all left his arms and he exploded? Silat is for bullies? --__--__-- Message: 6 From: AnimalMac@aol.com Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 15:59:05 EST To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Silat tapes Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >From Marc Animal MacYoung Kim said: >Thanks for not taking offense...I meant none, but sometimes in martial arts circles it is hard to ask a question, or for clarification, without drawing wrath. Yeah, I know. And just for the fun of pissing people like that off further I often say "That response just shows they really don't understand the topic...but they like to pretend they do" Oooohhh does that set them off even more :D >My respect for you has increased tenfold, sir, for your ability to take the post in the spirit it was intended, and for offering clarification. Like I said, no worries. It is like what Doc Fung said, that weird and unexpected feeling of helplessness...but it is done with just a few inches of difference. You really have to know what to look for...if you don't, it looks like the same old same old and all this raving about it really makes no sense. I understand totally. >I could probably have done without making the comment that I didn't recommend Mr. Plinck's tapes to any serious martial artists, and for that I apologize. It was an honest response based on what you thought, based on your experience. And that is never a problem -- especially since you were willing to listen to an explination about things that are different than what you know. Where it does become a problem is when someone refuses to look at facts and ideas presented in explination in order to maintain their own "elitist" standing. (i.e., my art is better than your's and by extension, I am better than you"). Which is a problem that often plagues many people who define themselves by their standing in their art. >Anyway, thank you again, Mac, for clearing that up for me, and this sounds like something I need to investigate much more thoroughly before passing judgment. Something I often tell LEOs that I train: Starting from right here, go out a million miles in one direction. You end up out there. Now come back, change your orientation two inches and again head out a million miles. Where you end up is totally different than the first time. That two inch different at the core takes you millions of miles away from where you ended up the first time. Each is different, each is valid and each works under certain circumstances. Where you run into problems is when you decide that your first interpretation is the only interpretation and ignore all the other places you can go with this. That's knowing something. Understanding something is knowing all the other interpretations, their implications, uses and limits." Does this mean I think serak is the ultimate art? No. But they have some really interesting interpretations of things I knew already, used and combined in fascinating and different ways. And anything that will make my job of putting someone down and controlling them that much easier is something I want to look into. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and the Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of Eskrima Digest