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List-Unsubscribe: Status: OR Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<-------------- The Eskrima/FMA mailing list -------------->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to the Filipino Martial Arts. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). http://InayanEskrima.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: cooperative training (Jeff T. Inman) 2. Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 9 #39 - 6 msgs (POWERFACTOR71839@aol.com) 3. Re: Re: cooperative training (Ray Terry) 4. Upcoming Events in Burlington, MA (Meghan Gardner) 5. RE: Eskrima digest, Manila, Quiapo, Timog, Diliman, etc... (Deveyra, Tito A.) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 10:06:23 -0700 (MST) From: "Jeff T. Inman" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Cc: jti@ncgr.org Subject: [Eskrima] Re: cooperative training Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Crafty Dog wrote: > 2) Tom the Whip & Jeff "Sleeping Dog" Inman had an interesting bit recently. > I thought both had merit-- that's why in my own training I do both -- the > cooperative training thing and fighting. Of course by itself CT can leave > you clueless, but if you have fighting as part of your training, then that > is not likely. I love being in Guro I's Maphilindo class and find it > stimulates my thinking deeply. (The Kali class does have sparring so I > don't mention it here) If I passed on it because it was cooperative, I would > have much less to bring to a fight. Fighting only leaves one in the danger > not only stagnation as a fighter, but of the path coming to an end-- people > get stale sometimes if all they do is fight. True. They also accumulate damage. I take it back if I implied that cooperative training is worthless, but it bugs me to see cooperative opponents used where "fight techniques" are supposed to be shown. It conveys a false idea about fighting, in my opinion. Someone with fight experience may be able to extract a nugget of value, but I suspect most of us would rather just see brilliant fight maneuvers pulled off in "real" fights, just for the unique, perishable moments of beauty that they are. Such maneuvers are not necessarily something you can say "hey, I'm going to try that!" They just illustrate possibilities, and open your mind. The if-he-does-this-then-you-do-that stuff does also sometimes offer new potential for development, but it also offers an even greater potential for stagnation ... again, just my opinion. I think fighters with experience but lacking much formal technique will generally be superior to fighters trained in technique but lacking experience. Now show them a new technique, and they may say "hmmmmm", and maybe they can make use of it. Or maybe not. Here's the thing. I've seen the "inside sweep" or "outside sweep" taught hundreds of times in the "cooperative"-type setting. The feed is one of those phony angle-1's, and the counter involves simultaneously blocking the stick-attack and checking the stick-hand. I assume everyone else has seen this taught hundreds of times, as well, so it's not like we don't know about that concept. Yet in the probably-thousands of stick fights I have seen, I have never once seen someone pull off that maneuver. I will agree with you if you say that the "concept" is implicit in other things that fighters do. But the drill itself, in my mind, is false, and the "other things" are done in spite of the drill, not because of it. That form of the inside sweep taught in cooperative-style, is misleading and counter- productive. I wouldn't waste a student's time with it. (I'm guessing that you don't teach that technique that way, so I'm trusting that I'm not stepping on your toes with this example.) Obviously, you have to walk before you can run. I think most of the point of training is to allow the student to survive in a "real" fight for long enough to get the *real* training. After that, you stand a chance of learning how to fight. The things you most need to know, in order to fight well, simply can not be taught in a cooperative setting. Regards, Jeff --__--__-- Message: 2 From: POWERFACTOR71839@aol.com Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 12:34:38 EST To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 9 #39 - 6 msgs Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net In reference to Tony Cecchine: << This is indeed very sad news. Tony seems like a real class act. Please let us know of any new, and hopefully favorable, developments. Ray Terry >> Tony is still having seizures of unknown origin. His students are taking orders for tapes to help with his income. www.catchwrestle.com. For cards, send to---> PO BOX 364 Addison, IL 60101 For all you Kali guys who also practice BJJ, try Catchwrestling for an added edge and a very offensive approach. Tony shows IN INCREDIBLE DETAIL, wrestling, positions, and "hooks". Tom Furman --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: cooperative training To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 11:14:31 PST Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Here's the thing. I've seen the "inside sweep" or "outside > sweep" taught hundreds of times in the "cooperative"-type > setting. The feed is one of those phony angle-1's, and the > counter involves simultaneously blocking the stick-attack and > checking the stick-hand. I assume everyone else has seen this > taught hundreds of times, as well, so it's not like we don't know > about that concept. Yet in the probably-thousands of stick > fights I have seen, I have never once seen someone pull off that > maneuver. I will agree with you if you say that the "concept" is > implicit in other things that fighters do. But the drill itself, > in my mind, is false, and the "other things" are done in spite of > the drill, not because of it. That form of the inside sweep > taught in cooperative-style, is misleading and counter- > productive. I wouldn't waste a student's time with it. (I'm > guessing that you don't teach that technique that way, so I'm > trusting that I'm not stepping on your toes with this example.) So, I don't know if I've seen 1000 full contact fights in my 30 years of martial arts training, but... It sounds like you are describing a typical Serrada counter. IMO, if one is on the outside trying to time the entry -and- the block to a full power #1 (steep or flat), yes, that is rather difficult. But that aside, it does work and I've seen it work. Yeck, I've even made it work myself. So it can't be all that difficult... :) Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Meghan Gardner" To: Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 14:02:50 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] Upcoming Events in Burlington, MA Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Upcoming Events: Ditch Medicine! Sunday, February 24th, 2002 from 9AM-5PM Learn emergency self-treatment of Gunshot & Edged Weapon Wounds with Bill Lewitt. Classroom as well as Practical sessions. Includes Care under Fire, Tactical Field Care, Casualty Evacuation Care and more. Family member/Officer down scenarios, basic anatomy, basic life support techniques are also covered. Bring your brain for this one... it could save your life or the life of someone you love. Registration is only $95/person ($120 after Feb. 10th) for 8 hours of emergency trauma training. We accept Visa and MC. Call Guard Up, Inc. at 781.270.4800 for more information and to register. Swordsmanship Seminar: Sunday, March 17th, 2002 12-3PM. This 3-hour seminar will start with one hour of Japanese Swordsmanship (Iaido), then one hour of European Fencing (Foil), and wrap up with one hour of Medieval Fighting (Sword and Shield). Get training in all three fighting styles in one seminar! All instructors are highly experienced in their respective art. Only $45 ($55 after March 3rd) and all weaponry and safety gear is provided. No experience necessary. Call 781.270.4800 to register. Visa and MC accepted. Weapons Defense Seminar: Sunday, March 24th, 2002 10AM-5PM. Full day training seminar teaching PRACTICAL defense against knives, guns and clubs. This is not traditional martial arts. This material is taught to law enforcement and federal agents. Learn how to defend against an attacker with a knife, a hand gun or a club (baseball bat, tire iron, stick, etc). $75 for 7 hours of training ($85 after March 10th). We accept Visa and MC. Call Guard Up, Inc. at 781.270.4800 for more information and to register. Women's Self Defense Intensive: Sunday, April 14th, 2002 from 1-4PM. A comprehensive self defense course for women and girls ages 14 and older (under 18 need signed parental release). Learn simple but effective verbal skills and physical techniques against our Padded Attacker (and instructor suited head to toe in protective padding). Try out your defensive tactics with full force! Learn how to overcome the freezing fear and handle your adrenaline rush. Registration is only $58/person ($75 after March 30). We accept Visa and MC. Call Guard Up, Inc. at 781.270.4800 for more information and to register. Introduction to Tai Chi: Sunday, May 5th, 2002 from noon until 2PM. Learn the stances, techniques and applications of this meditative martial art. Practice chi kung (breathing) exercises. A great way of improving your balance and grace while learning moves from a simplified form. Only $20/person ($25 after April 21). We accept Visa and MC. Call Guard Up, Inc. at 781.270.4800 for more information and to register. Brazilian Jiu Jitsu Basics: Sunday, May 12, 2002 from 12-3PM. Learn the basics of ground-fighting and grappling including takedowns. Class taught with striking tactics considered. Learn basic chokes and locks as well as how to defend against them. Registration is only $35/person ($45 after Feb. 10th). We accept Visa and MC. Call Guard Up, Inc. at 781.270.4800 for more information and to register. Eskrima for Beginners: Sunday, May 19th, 2002 from noon until 2PM. Learn basic drills and techniques of Filipino Stick Fighting. Only $20/person ($25 after May 5th). Eskrima Sticks available for sale. We accept Visa and MC. Call Guard Up, Inc. at 781.270.4800 for more information and to register. Foam Weapon Sparring Tournament: Sunday, June 20th, 2002 from 12-3PM. Divisions for LARP (Live Action Roleplaying) Fighting and ARMA (Assoc. of Renaissance Martial Arts) Fighting in two events: single/double weapon and sword/shield. Safety gear required for ARMA Division. Event registration starts at only $15 ($20 after June 6th). We accept Visa and MC. Call Guard U p, Inc. at 781.270.4800 for more information and to register. For more information on events and directions to our facility, visit our website: www.guardup.com. Meghan Gardner Executive Director Guard Up, Inc. www.guardup.com --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 11:56:36 -0800 From: "Deveyra, Tito A." To: Subject: [Eskrima] RE: Eskrima digest, Manila, Quiapo, Timog, Diliman, etc... Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Message: 1 From: EGJundis@aol.com Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 23:47:35 EST To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Manila Travel Log Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I walked intentionally without a clear goal: I think I needed to take in Manila. I walked for six hours and got lost three times: once in Quiapo, again in some side streets near UST, and finally in some side neighborhood off Timog near East Avenue. I had a map with me the whole time but didn't use it until I got home until to see where I had been. I had walked from just south of Ermita to Matalino Street (Where I am staying) near Quezon City Hall. I never felt it was wise to pull out a street map while walking where I was walking. Once near home while walking in the Park-like area around the Quezon City Circle I had an individual attempt to stare me down and approach me. I choose to keep on my intended path, nod an acknowledgment, and keep on my way. I used an approach I learned from several of my silat instructors for increasing my rearward peripheral vision: look at the ground and you rear ward vision increases another 90 degrees. My father also taught me this years ago when trying to teach me Basketball; he said it was especially useful when you are stopped and double teamed. As I passed him, he stopped to pause, took another two steps towards me and then faded back. I looked back and he turned away. I guess I'm not an appetizing target. ----------------------------- All I can say is that you're crazy to walk 6 hours from Quiapo to Teacher's Village :) !!!! And what a walk that must have been. I used to live close to Matalino (Malakas St.) and went to elementary and high school at Claret. Quezon memorial circle (the park) used to be safer. I remember parking my car there at night when the grass used to be 5 feet high. It made for very interesting dates. Ever since they built it up, crime has gone up. I've actually heard of people being stabbed there lately for money, fun or looking at someone funny or eye-to-eye. Also during high school, that used to be a popular site for fraternity "rumbles". High school (and college) fraternities in the Philippines were more like gangs. The application process usually ended in some severe physical hazing after months of humiliation. The final application was usually a hazing ritual where one gets "paddled" with a flat wooden board until you are literally black and blue. You'd be in class sitting at the edge of your seat because your legs are hurting so bad for weeks. It's not uncommon to get cigarette burns, punched, kicked. One common ritual is to blindfold an applicant and let them run through a line of people while getting punched, kicked or whacked. At one high school some student died when he was instructed to down an entire bottle of patis (fish sauce). When there is a dispute between fraternities a rumble is usually arranged at a predetermined time and place. All fraternity members are gathered as "resbak" (backups). One fraternity lined on one side, the other on another. Each member usually carries some form of weapon: balisong, pipe, stick, ice pick, cadena (chain) or pana. Pana (arrow) is a home made projectile made from filing a 6-inch nail to a flat arrow point. This is held in a pipe with a rubber band and shot like a slingshot. On cue both "frats" collide and attack. Imagine the scene from Gladiator with high school and/or college kids. Free for all. To each his own. I remember that at one time, two fraternities from our school were at odds with each other. One fraternity called "resbak" from their frat brothers from two other schools. Upon hearing that the other fraternity was going to be outnumbered in the rumble, a member, whose father was in the military, went home and came back with an M-16. I guess that pretty much stopped the rumble when the other fraternity, although superior in number but not in firepower, saw some guy walking in front of the school with the M-16 slung around. Our prefect of dicipline (the official at school, not the principal, in charge of just dicipline) used to carry a handgun! This rivalry used to happen between schools too. Sort of like a UCLA-USC. But you really got beat up. Specially universities in Manila, you wouldn't dare walk close to a another school's campus. I've had friends beaten up and ganged up. Some have even been followed to their home. One thing for certain is that the tribe or gang mentality is very strong. You usually don't have an argument with just one person. You have a beef with that one person, plus his brothers, his friends and their friends. Your friends just don't stand on the side and watch you get beaten up or attacked. It's a very strange society. Tito de Veyra --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and the Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of Eskrima Digest