To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sender: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net List-Help: List-Post: X-Subscribed-Address: rterry@idiom.com List-Subscribe: List-Id: Inayan Eskrima / FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Today's Topics: 1. Sweep Counters (Tom Skoglind) 2. Re: cooperative training (Jeff T. Inman) 3. Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 9 #40 - 5 msgs (LARRY ST. CLAIR) 4. Re: Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 9 #40 - 5 msgs (Ray Terry) 5. Fraternities in the Philippines (International Rutano Estokada Federation) 6. Re: Manila Travelogue by E. Jundis and T. Deveyra (Jay de Leon) 7. re: Ms. J's sig (Dave Sheehy) 8. 2 kinds of eskrima (Steven Drape) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Tom Skoglind" To: Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 16:42:10 -0600 Subject: [Eskrima] Sweep Counters Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Jeff wrote: "Here's the thing. I've seen the "inside sweep" or "outside sweep" taught hundreds of times in the "cooperative"-type setting. .... Yet in the probably-thousands of stick fights I have seen, I have never once seen someone pull off that maneuver. " __________ I have seen that move applied successfully in real-time stick fighting with minimal gear by several people. Mangisursuro Inay was awesome at it, and could disarm very fluidly from the counter, either inside or out. I was fighting him once, and actually completed a full swing before I looked and saw that I had no stick, and Suro was holding both of them with a big grin on his face. After one of our fights, his proficiency in sweeping the Serrada angle 2 - type strike led me to receive many comments like "Hey, nice head block!" from spectators. What an amazing man... Tom Skoglind IFE Instructor www.inayaneskrima.com skoglind@inayaneskrima.com --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 14:29:37 -0700 (MST) From: "Jeff T. Inman" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Cc: jti@ncgr.org Subject: [Eskrima] Re: cooperative training Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Jeff Inman wrote (to Marc Denny): > > Here's the thing. I've seen the "inside sweep" or "outside > > sweep" taught hundreds of times in the "cooperative"-type > > setting. The feed is one of those phony angle-1's, and the > > counter involves simultaneously blocking the stick-attack and > > checking the stick-hand. I assume everyone else has seen this > > taught hundreds of times, as well, so it's not like we don't know > > about that concept. Yet in the probably-thousands of stick > > fights I have seen, I have never once seen someone pull off that > > maneuver. I will agree with you if you say that the "concept" is > > implicit in other things that fighters do. But the drill itself, > > in my mind, is false, and the "other things" are done in spite of > > the drill, not because of it. That form of the inside sweep > > taught in cooperative-style, is misleading and counter- > > productive. I wouldn't waste a student's time with it. (I'm > > guessing that you don't teach that technique that way, so I'm > > trusting that I'm not stepping on your toes with this example.) Ray Terry wrote: > So, I don't know if I've seen 1000 full contact fights in my 30 years > of martial arts training, but... It sounds like you are describing > a typical Serrada counter. IMO, if one is on the outside trying to time > the entry -and- the block to a full power #1 (steep or flat), yes, that is > rather difficult. But that aside, it does work and I've seen it work. Yeck, > I've even made it work myself. So it can't be all that difficult... :) Hi Ray, The technique I was talking about is a move into midrange, which includes a block and a check of the striking hand with the free hand, intended to set up one of several followup counters. I have seen it taught to beginners, even on day 1 of their training. I didn't say that it couldn't possibly work, but just that it presents a deceptive picture with a cooperative opponent. A real angle-1, thrown with power, can certainly be blocked and entered against, but perfecting the inside sweep seems to me only a tiny step towards that capability. My point of mentioning that I haven't seen it done in fights is not to prove that it can't be done, but rather that it isn't something that people who are fighting seem to do. (Okay, thinking it over, I suppose I've seen roughly a thousand fights in ~7 years, probably more.) I think the reason it isn't done is that that technique isn't very "authentic" for dealing with adrenalinized opponents, though it makes an impressive demo with a cooperative partner. That's all I'm saying: it (slightly) bugs me to see cooperative partners used in demonstrating/practicing fight techniques, because (by definition!) a fight opponent is not cooperative, and that makes a big difference. I hope I have made it clear that I don't consider cooperative training useless. Best regards, Jeff PS: I don't intend to drag this topic out too much further. --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "LARRY ST. CLAIR" To: Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 15:25:01 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 9 #40 - 5 msgs Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net in reply to (Jeff): >Here's the thing. I've seen the "inside sweep" or "outside >sweep" taught hundreds of times in the "cooperative"-type >setting. The feed is one of those phony angle-1's, and the >counter involves simultaneously blocking the stick-attack and >checking the stick-hand. I assume everyone else has seen this >taught hundreds of times, as well, so it's not like we don't know >about that concept. Yet in the probably-thousands of stick >fights I have seen, I have never once seen someone pull off that >maneuver. I'll have to send you video because I use the "outside sweep" all the time. in fact, it is one technique that I have used to defeat several opponents in tournaments and regular sparring matches. I agree the drill in a cooperative manor doesn't sum it up. you have to evolve the drill as the students ability evolves. the outside sweep / inside sweep drill has many concepts to work and you just have to put on the gear and pound it in. the ability to perceive the opponents intentions (also angles of attack), timing, footwork, distance and the use of the check hand are all parts of the drill and are extremely important. for the beginning students it is a lot to move that way, for the advanced student the movement is easy but the understanding is vast and sometimes difficult. keeping sweatin, saint --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 9 #40 - 5 msgs To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 15:03:09 PST Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Remember to change the subject line... Thanks. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 15:30:41 -0700 From: International Rutano Estokada Federation To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Fraternities in the Philippines Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net It is interesting to note that the growth and popularity of martial arts in the Philippines has a lot to do with fraternities and its rivalries with each other to gain notoriety and supremacy. Grandmaster Johnny Chiuten, a kung-fu legend before training with GM Anciong Bacon of Balintawak, and GM Filemon Caburnay of Lapunti, used his skill in street fights and fraternity rumbles as a member of one of the feared and notorious fraternity in the Philippines. GM Chiuten use to conduct classes for the members of this fraternity. This said fraternity used to dominate tournaments in the Philippines in the 60's and 70's. At that time this tournament are full contact with no body armor or protection. Dan Rutano www.members.shaw.ca/haribondumog/welcome.htm --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Jay de Leon" To: Cc: Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 16:06:11 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Manila Travelogue by E. Jundis and T. Deveyra Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net That is a long walk from Ermita to Quiapo to Quezon City. I know the route very well, as it was my route from college going home. I went to college in La Salle at Taft Ave., just round the corner from Rizal Stadium, and went home to EDSA/Quezon Blvd. in Quezon City. When I took public transportation, I would take a jeepney from Taft Ave. to Quiapo, then take a bus which would go down Quezon Boulevard passing UST, past Timog Ave. all the way to EDSA, just before QC Memorial Park. Yes, my friends and I used the "lovers' lane" at the park for a while, actually just an empty field. Then somebody in a parked car got shot there one night, and we stopped going there. T. Deveyra mentioned the arrow (pana). I have seen several news clips and pictures of victims of this weapon. In one instance, this guy was on an operating table, waiting for the doctor. The arrow, which was nothing but a giant steel dart with feathers at the end, was protruding from the vicinity of his right temple. Half of the arrow was inside his skull, the other half protruding out. He was conscious, with his eyes open, and did not appear seriously hurt. Not all survive this kind of attack, mostly ambushes. Most of the time, you do not even see your attacker. Re: the "frat" wars and initiation, it was indeed vicious and senseless then. A friend and neighbor of mine, Boy Tabtab, died from physical hazing during his initiation to a UP (University of the Philippines) frat. Ironically, his father was a professor at the same university. MARTIAL ARTS HISTORICAL ANECDOTE In 1991, I was in the Phil. and attended one of the first international Pencak Silat tournaments. It was called the "Pencak Silat Championship 1991" held Nov. 25-29 at the Pamantasan ng Lungsod ng Maynila. In addition to the Philippines, five countries participated--Indonesia, Malaysia, Brunei, Singapore and Thailand. The Philippine delegation was sponsored by the Philippine Pencak Silat Association, with Sultan Jamalalul Kiram III and Perlito M. Giducos, founding president and and secretary general, respectively. The empty hands sparring looked like a regular karate tournament, but the weapons forms and demos were very impressive, with definitely a Muslim/Chinese flavor. From E. Jundis' report, it would appear that Silat is even more alive and well now, with authentic Muslim/Mindanao silat warriors passing on their art. Jay de Leon --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Dave Sheehy To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 19:43:16 PST Subject: [Eskrima] re: Ms. J's sig Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Bear wrote: > <<<" Well Behaved Women Seldom Make History">>> > I really have to disagree with you here. Well behaved, courteous people > of both sexes usually achieve much more than ill behaved ones. A few examples > would be: Jackie Kennedy Onasis, Margaret Thatcher, Madeline Allbright. All > very powerful women who commanded the respect of everyone, even those that > didn't care for them personally. They were also cultured, courteous, well > mannered individuals. I believe that they have all made history. This quote appears to be a convolution of the George Bernard Shaw quote: "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." Dave --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 08:57:11 +0300 From: "Steven Drape" To: Subject: [Eskrima] 2 kinds of eskrima Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Here's the thing. I've seen the "inside sweep" or "outside sweep" taught hundreds of times in the "cooperative"-type setting. The feed is one of those phony angle-1's, and the counter involves simultaneously blocking the stick-attack and checking the stick-hand. I assume everyone else has seen this taught hundreds of times, as well, so it's not like we don't know about that concept. Yet in the probably-thousands of stick fights I have seen, I have never once seen someone pull off that maneuver. I will agree with you if you say that the "concept" is implicit in other things that fighters do. But the drill itself, in my mind, is false, and the "other things" are done in spite of the drill, not because of it. That form of the inside sweep taught in cooperative-style, is misleading and counter- productive. I wouldn't waste a student's time with it. (I'm guessing that you don't teach that technique that way, so I'm trusting that I'm not stepping on your toes with this example.) I agree Jeff. I have always said that there are, and I teach, two types of eskrima. One is what could be called eskrima for self-defense. In this style, I will teach the inside sweep, or a snake off a block, etc.. These techniques do work quite well against a guy coming at you with an ax handle, who only wants to bash your brains out. He doesn't have any eskrima experience or knowledge, and almost all the basic defensive techs will work, even disarms, based on whatever the situation is. The second style I teach is eskrima for eskrimadors. In this method, these types of tecvhniques are, if not ignored, taught only with much warning and are only used in passing- in other words, I might teach the inside sweep block, but not in conjunction with a static live hand check and counterstrike. I think it is important to make that distinction between types of techniques, and at least make it clear to the students that, if you don't actually fight to learn that this doesn't work, you can at least hear it from me. Steve [demime 0.98e removed an attachment of type image/gif] [demime 0.98e removed an attachment of type Image/jpeg] --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and the Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of Eskrima Digest