Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 13:52:09 -0800 (PST) From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 9 #70 - 5 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.8 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sender: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net List-Help: List-Post: X-Subscribed-Address: rterry@idiom.com List-Subscribe: List-Id: Inayan Eskrima / FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Today's Topics: 1. All choked up.... (TomMeadows) 2. LAMECO Gear? (Tim Fong) 3. Re: NYS bill to certify MA teachers (Terry Tippie) 4. Re: All choked up.... (Ray Terry) 5. from the Lonely Planet (Ray Terry) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "TomMeadows" To: "Eskrima Digest" Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 22:27:45 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] All choked up.... Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Greetings, Having gotten some interesting private e-mails and some flak on the digest I figured I would tackle the choke hold question again. My first post was specifically directed to the legal reasons for Use of Force regulations for police officers regarding choke holds. With that in mind the main focus was intended to be on the medical implications of various choke holds. One area that I did not cover, because I had forgotten it, was the fact that plaque can break loose from the arterial walls during the carotid choke. These pieces of loose plaque can cause strokes or be fatal. There were several people on the list that mentioned that to me and I wanted to be sure that piece of information was added to my original post. With that said, let's get on with the entertainment. I am not an authority on choke holds. I would consider Gene LeBell, Larry Hartsell, Eric Paulson, Yorinaga Nakamura, Ron Balicki, or any of the Gracie/ Machado families to be authorities, which is why anybody that wants to fight over the details should consult with them. And report back to this digest. I am however, thoroughly educated in that area, and consider myself knowledgeable, and have done a fair amount of research, some of which I am going to explain here. Kim Satterfield mention the preference in the Judo clubs for the blood choke. My first training in Judo was in 1963 in Tokyo Japan, and more recently I have worked with a local judo instructor and competitor. We discussed the Judo preference for blood chokes and he said it is due to the fact that barehanded chokes are not legal in competition. The gi is a very powerful tool for assisting chokes, and is not as effective for windpipe chokes, safety issues aside. Thus the Judo people will prefer the blood choke both in the training hall and in competition. For the real world they have to augment their training with barehanded training because most western garments will rip to shreds if used to assist choking techniques. Ah, the real world. In the last fifteen years of martial arts training with over thirty five instructors,I have never met anyone who has allowed themselves to be choked out by windpipe constriction. Note I said "choked out" NOT "tapped out" . I am sure there are people out there who have had this experience and I propose a poll of the digest members to take a count of everyone who has ever fully lost consciousness from windpipe constriction. I do mean this seriously as a basis for the only valid forum for continuing this thread. Let's take a head count. Back to my original post. I have never been choked out by windpipe constriction. My reference was to when I inhaled a large cloud of sulfuric acid gas and my windpipe shut off completely as a reflexive response. Just as effective as a perfect windpipe choke. I took three steps as my vision narrowed, two more into blackness and woke up later with no memory of how I got to the floor or where I was. 6 seconds flat. Definitely not a training hall or street experience, but nonetheless an excellent model of perfect windpipe constriction. To duplicate this level of airway constriction requires a lethal level of pressure both in terms of speed of application and degree of pressure. Which is why many fighters, myself included, immediately yield when Mike "Dogzilla" Tibbets grabs your windpipe in his hand and squeezes. Basic Marine technique aided by his screaming in your face " I got your throat!!!!!!!!!". In 14 years of martial arts training Mike is the only guy that ever set me into full bore panic in sparring. Most people will reflexively panic when the windpipe is attacked and will thrash at an extraordinary level. This is pure reflex, often confused (ignorantly) with reaction. A reflex goes from pain center to the spine and sends signals to the appropriate muscles without consulting the brain. This is why the number of people that have allowed themselves to be choked out by airway constriction is so small: The body takes over and overrides the co-operative brain and any intelligent training partner will respond to the degree of panic the victim's body is exhibiting. Blood choke times. I walked next door today and asked a veteran sheriff how long in the field does a blood choke take to render a person unconscious. Seven seconds was his instant reply. Seven seconds after it was fully in place he pointed out. Years ago I asked the same question of a 23 year highway patrol veteran and he said "A blood choke can take anywhere from 4 to 20 seconds to take effect depending on the skill of the choker and the subject's physiology" which was the info I put in my original post. I studied AikiJujitsu for several years with this CHP officer and he scared me almost as much as Dogzilla when he trained me in chokes. My other AikiJujitsu instructor used to have his instructors deliberately ignore "tapping out" so we could see how it actually felt to pass out and where our true limits were. Stupid training practice, but educational nonetheless. Three seconds to tunnel vision, and two more for me to go out. Back to the real world. Allowing a training partner to get in perfect position and then execute a choke does not constitute a valid model for evaluating choke times. The police officers and correctional officers on the list know that it is hard work to get into position to choke and sometimes there is much time lost in a partial choke position until the "ideal" position is gained which can greatly affect the time involved. A review of any of the Dog Brother's tapes will reinforce this fact. There is an exception to every rule, and there are no absolutes in the martial arts, and choking techniques are absolutely no exception to these rules. Tom Meadows --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Tim Fong" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 22:49:48 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] LAMECO Gear? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hello, Lately I've been bitten by the stick sparring bug.  The group with whom I practice uses padded sticks (pvc and rattan) but I want to take it to the next level.  I don't like the fact that the padded sticks seem slower, and I figure if I'm learning eskrima I want to spar with real sticks.  I hear the lameco hand guard/wrist guard are good, but I'm curious for more info about them. How many folks use them?  Are they mostly for drills or for sparring? I'm not ready to go Dog-Brothers style yet, but I want to get a little bit closer, and this seems like the next logical step. Thanks, Tim Fong "The basic tool for the manipulation of reality is the manipulation of words. If you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use the words." -Philip K. Dick (1928-1982) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: Click Here --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 07:02:38 -0800 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net From: Terry Tippie Subject: Re: [Eskrima] NYS bill to certify MA teachers Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net The angel on my right shoulder says: I know that this is a serious issue and that the state would probably do a lousy job of regulating martial arts. Actually, the regulatory body would probably get co-opted by the large, well established schools to the detriment of the little guys. The devil on my left shoulder says: Go for it! Help push the bill through only make sure that a Muay Thai guy writes the requirements: Kick through a 2x4 with your shin, run 6 miles in 40 minutes, pass a sparring test with a pro in your weight division. That ought to limit competition. --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [Eskrima] All choked up.... To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 14:11:07 PST Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Very excellent post by Master Tommy "The Whip" Meadows snipped... > Ah, the real world. In the last fifteen years of martial arts training with > over thirty five instructors, ... Tom, you really gotta start taking more showers. :) ... > My other AikiJujitsu instructor used to have his instructors deliberately > ignore "tapping out" so we could see how it actually felt to pass out and > where our true limits were. Stupid training practice, but educational > nonetheless. Three seconds to tunnel vision, and two more for me to go out. Seems like if you're young(er) and in shape, a great practice, IMHO. I personally think it is a good idea to know what it feels like to get choked out. Yep, been there, felt that, and am still alive to tell about it. Tunnel vision, auditory exclusion, time warp, (brain damage?), all those fun things set in... Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Ray Terry To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 14:26:18 PST Subject: [Eskrima] from the Lonely Planet Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Philippines The 7000 islands that comprise the Philippines are the forgotten islands of South-East Asia. Off the main overland route and with a recent history of martial law and endemic corruption, the country has struggled to attract tourists in the numbers many of its southeast Asian neighbours have. Since the demise of the authoritarian Marcos regime 15 years ago the Philippines has fared better; however, the last few years have sent the country's fortunes tumbling once again. In 2000 a Brussels-based research centre declared the Philippines the most disaster-prone country on earth. It named typhoons, earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, floods, garbage landslides and military action against Muslim insurgents as just some of the problems both locals and tourists have had to deal with. Political woes continue to set the country back. Most recently, former president Estrada was arraigned in July 2001 on the capital offence of economic plunder. Meanwhile, new president Gloria Macapagal-Arroyo is struggling to revitalise the country and establish her political credentials. Despite these difficulties, most of the Philippines is laid back, stable and relatively safe. The country likes to promote itself as the place where 'Asia wears a smile' and the locals are, by and large, an exceptionally friendly and helpful bunch. On top of this, transport is cheap, the food is good, accommodation is plentiful and (for the monolinguistic) English is widely spoken. Warning The Philippines' political stability has been consistently precarious during 2001. Prior to elections in early May 2001, newly sworn-in President Gloria Macapagal Arroyo declared Manila to be in a 'State of Rebellion'. Some 20,000 supporters of ousted president Estrada took to the streets and clashed with police in a conflict that left at least three protesters and two police officers dead. In addition, guerillas have developed a predilection for kidnapping foreign tourists and ransoming them for large sums of money. Hostages who have been held by Muslim rebel group Abu Sayyaf since late May have still not been released. The group claims to have beheaded one of its American hostages in June, but this has not been confirmed. The government has made inroads by capturing and arresting some of the group's top members; however, security in southern regions is still an issue for tourists. Although the danger lies mostly in the south, travellers should also be cautious in Manila and other major centres. Serious thought should be given to avoiding Sulu Archipelago, Basilan, Lanao del Sur, Lanao del Norte, North Cotabato, Maguindanao, and parts of the Zamboanga peninsula. Keep an eye on developments, and seek local advice on travel to other parts of Mindanao. If you're a journalist keep your head down while in the Philippines. According to the Paris-based World Association of Newspapers, five media workers were killed there in the first half of 2001. The other major issue to be aware of is boat safety. The Philippines archipelago is serviced by a flotilla of ferries, some of them little more than rickety tubs that are often overcrowded and underserviced. There are 100 ferry accidents a year in the Philippines, many of them involving high numbers of fatalities. Legislators have begun to call for the death penalty for negligent operators whose boats sink, but this is unlikely to improve the seaworthiness of many vessels. If you feel uncomfortable boarding a ferry that looks shonky, leaky or overcrowded, look for an alternative boat or catch a plane. Full country name: Republic of the Philippines Area: 299,000 sq km (116,610 sq mi) Population: 78.4 million Capital city: Manila (pop: 10 million) People: Predominantly descendants of Malays, Chinese and Muslim minorities and a number of mestizos (Filipino-Spanish or Filipino-Americans) Language: Pilipino (Tagalog) and English plus numerous widely spoken indigenous languages, some Spanish Religion: 82% Roman Catholic, 9% Protestant, 5% Muslim, 3% Buddhist Government: Republic President: Gloria Macapagal-Arroyo GDP: US$75.2 billion GDP per head: US$1000 Annual growth: 3.9% Inflation: 4.4% Major products/industries: Electronic and electrical products, clothing Major trading partners: USA, Japan, Taiwan --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and the Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of Eskrima Digest