Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 21:24:42 -0800 (PST) From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 9 #95 - 8 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.8 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sender: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net List-Help: List-Post: X-Subscribed-Address: rterry@idiom.com List-Subscribe: List-Id: Inayan Eskrima / FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Today's Topics: 1. Vol 9, #94 Response to Message 2 Survey (Taylor, William S. (YL5) ) 2. Animal's survey (?!) on lethal force studies. (Scott Kinney) 3. Legalities of Knife as Palm stick (Arnisman@aol.com) 4. Re: 205 different styling of FMA (Johnaleen) 5. Eskrido (Ray Terry) 6. RE: Re: 205 different styling of FMA (Mike Casto) 7. Re: Sayoc Seminar April 13th in Chicago area (GuroJeff@aol.com) 8. Martial Arts & Legal Use of Force (Bill McG) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Taylor, William S. (YL5) " To: "'eskrima@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 16:04:25 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] Vol 9, #94 Response to Message 2 Survey Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I have attended training on the legal rights and limitations involving the use of force and am a NRA Certified Instructor for Pistol and Personal Protection. Although the excellent NRA training focuses on firearms for defense, the principles involved would apply to any weapon. Bill Taylor http://InayanEskrima.com --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Tue, 12 Mar 02 16:09:44 +0000 From: "Scott Kinney" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Animal's survey (?!) on lethal force studies. Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Animal, I've attended such a course, (which included some written and performance exams....the words 'totality of circumstance' are firmly embedded in my brain....) And a couple of my main instructors encourage/insist that students educate themselves on these issues. Hock Hochheim's newsletter usually includes a legal column as well. Just as an aside, I was disappointed that during the 'hockey dad' trial, CourtTV and other legal pudits did not bother to explain laws on self-defense, instead focusing on 'rowdy parents at childrens sports'. Personally, watching the testimony, I was convinced that the guy forfeited his self-defense claim every time he turned around to go back into the arena. (Just my opinion.)    -------------------------------------------------- Scott Kinney Project Manager, Amateur Barbarian sakinney@ix.netcom.com -------------------------------------------------- --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Arnisman@aol.com Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 16:43:18 EST To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Legalities of Knife as Palm stick Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Marc: Its been awhile, Hope you are doing OK.. As for teaching legalities, I finds very few of us on the circuit teach legalities and liabilities. Most think that instructors like myself talking of reprecussions from self-dense actions, legal liability for self defense actions and any type of recrminations from self defense actions are not in our right minds.. "my god man..anyone can do anything they want in self defense...right?" Most think that they can carry a weapon or tool and use it as they please. That the proper response is to finish the bag guy,,even if its attack first because they carry the idiot attitude of its better to be tried than buried..because in their world its only black and white...defense to death or die in trying. Yes..I DO know several Knife instructors that DO teach legal ramifications..and stress it like myself in teaching.. I think I might go over board in my teaching of restraint in use of force and the ramifications of use of force,,,in my seminars and tapes but hey..criminal and civil courts are not my favorite place to discuss things! Unfortunately there is the resonable response part that is ignored.. and the fact that a jury or prosecuter may not see it their way..our way plus people seem to think that they can use any tool in self defense as they see fit.. As you know, no one can use an illegal tool or weapon legally.. As for using a knife as an impact tool, each case is and must be judged on its own merit..If the tool is never opened then intent of usage is a mitagating circumstance. To be used as a knife a knife MUST have an exposed cutting surface..Legal definition of a knife is a tool or object with a cutting edge..No edge no knife.. and yes you are correct..drawing a knife is still drawing a knife UNLESS ones atty can show that the intent was to NEVER open the knife and it of course NEVER opens.....but it can be argued that is was not designed to be used as an impact tool BUT only as a knife.. yes.. I know the are no knives designed to be closed but mine.. Its patented as an impact tool that can move to a cutting tool ...and cover all ranges of combat non lethal to les than lethal to lethal..if needed...and again is designed to allow for non ethal control in lethal mode is needed to de-escalate in the flow.. but thats a diferent story.. As to cutting an unarmed attacker..there are times its OK..they are far and few between... disparity of force by size, numbers, age or health...and one better be in fear for ones life.. It would help if one has no avenue of escape, and in imminent jeapordy. I have seen instructors telling people to cut throats, cut spinal cords...disembowl people, cut femoral arteries...stick it in the heart, lungs, kidneys etc..all to defend against a physical attack.. An irresponsible way to teach in my humble opinion... I would hate to use-misuse lethal force to save my life only to lose my freedom to live in a closed community with the very people I was defending against! Loss of freedom is not a good swap in my eyes.. We need to train safely and understand that battle number #1 is to survive the attack but battle number #2 is going to be in court.. Thanks Marc for bringing up the topic! --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Johnaleen" To: Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 17:14:55 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] Re: 205 different styling of FMA Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Dear Digest members, some of you know that i have been working on a list of official styling of Filipino martial arts. i have verified most of them. there are 2 that i am just unclear of being both relevant and both individual styles of fma, and as i have heard at least 5 different versions of where and what eskrido or escrido is i better just ask to be sure........:) Maybe Mike Casto or one of the other Eskrido specialists here can help me. i am trying to be as accurate as possible and not have many Inconsistency's they are many with my writing and this i do realise..........:( 63. Escrido 65. Eskrido now over the past 4 to 5 years i have seen it spelled both ways. if anyone can tell me for sure, please let me know i am trying to get the copy done this week and sent for copywriting... and there's still time to add to the Now 205 different styling of FMA. i have seriously tried to verify all the new ones that have been submitted... Thank you M. J... Bows deeply... --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Ray Terry To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 15:05:37 PST Subject: [Eskrima] Eskrido Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > 63. Escrido > 65. Eskrido > > now over the past 4 to 5 years i have seen it spelled both ways. If you are speaking of Gm Cacoy Canete's Eskrido, it would be spelled with a "k". He would not have spelled it with a "c". Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 16:32:29 -0600 From: Mike Casto Subject: RE: [Eskrima] Re: 205 different styling of FMA To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net << Maybe Mike Casto or one of the other Eskrido specialists here can help me. i am trying to be as accurate as possible and not have many Inconsistency's they are many with my writing and this i do realise..........:( >> LOL ... well, while I appreciate the comment, I'm far from an Eskrido "specialist" :-) Student, yes :-) << 63. Escrido 65. Eskrido >> As Ray pointed out already, it's "Eskrido" :-) Regards, Mike --__--__-- Message: 7 From: GuroJeff@aol.com Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 18:55:07 EST To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Sayoc Seminar April 13th in Chicago area Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Greetings and Respects to all! I have the seminar location finalized... The Date: April 13, 2002 -- Saturday The Time: 9am till 5pm Location: A nice suburb outside of the Chicago Area... Libertyville NorthShore Academyof Martial Arts 1421 Peterson Road Libertyville, IL 60048 (847) 573-1672 Cost will be $75 per person barefoot, or grappling shoes ONLY email: GuroJeff@yahoo.com for information i really hope to meet you all at the seminar... be advised that, i will be available to set up other private lessons, and private group training outside of the seminar scheduled. I will be in Chicago from April 12th (Friday) through April 14th (Sunday). Galang, Jeff --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 23:32:49 -0800 From: Bill McG To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Martial Arts & Legal Use of Force Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Here is a copy of an article on the legal use of force from the Summer 2000 issue of my organization's newsletter. Regards, Tuhon Bill McGrath For more information visit the PTI web site at: http://www.pekiti-tirsia.com 12 SKILLS by Tuhon Bill McGrath 1. Knowing The Rules of Engagement (When to fight - legally, morally and tactically ) 2. Conditioning (cardio-vascular and muscular) 3. Footwork & body positioning (Mobility in your firing platform) 4. Flow (The ability to fluidity change from one technique to another) 5. Timing (The ability to do the right thing at the right time) 6. Striking (Delivering force) 7. Blocking & deflecting (Defending against force) 8. Clinching (Including trapping) 9. Grappling (Both standing and on the ground) 10. Strategy (Your battle plan) 11. Courage (The ability to overcome fear in order to achieve your goal) 12. Aggressiveness (Your willingness to deliver punishment) To recap a bit from the last newsletter: If I had plenty of time to train a student I would train them in skills 1 through 12 using all of the Pekiti-Tirsia system. If a student had to rush his training because he was soon going into combat (like a solider going into boot camp) I would choose just a few techniques and train him on as many principles as time allowed starting at 12 and working back towards 1. For the next several issues of the newsletter I will go over these skills one by one. We will start with skill # 1 - Knowing The Rules of Engagement. In this article I will cover the several areas these rules fall under, legal, financial, moral and tactical. LEGAL: Laws very from state to state, but a few paragraphs from the Penal Law of the State of New York should give you a general idea of the legal thinking on the issue (obviously you will need to consult with an experienced local attorney for the particulars in your state). Some pertinent parts of the law which should interest us are: Justification; General. Article 35 of the N.Y.State Penal Law states, in part: "...conduct which would otherwise constitute an offense is justified and not criminal when:...such conduct is necessary as an emergency measure to avoid an imminent public or private injury which is about to occur by reason of a situation occasioned or developed through no fault of the actor, and which is of such gravity that, according to ordinary standards of intelligence and morality, the desirability and urgency of avoiding such injury clearly outweigh the desirability of avoiding the injury sought to be prevented by the statute defining the offense in issue. A person may...use physical force upon another person when and to the extent he reasonably believes such to be necessary to defend himself or a third person from what he reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of unlawful physical force by another person, unless: (a) The latter's conduct was provoked by the actor himself with the intent to cause physical injury to another person; or (b) The actor was the initial aggressor; except that in such case his use of physical force is justified if he has withdrawn from the encounter and effectively communicated such withdrawal to such other person but the latter persists in continuing the incident by the use or threatened imminent use of unlawful physical force..." Deadly Physical Force (DPF): Definition: "physical force which, under the circumstances in which it was used, is readily capable of causing death or other serious physical injury". Physical injury is defined as: impairment of physical condition or substantial pain". Serious physical injury is defined as "physical injury which crates a substantial risk of death, or which causes death or serious and protracted disfigurement, protracted impairment of heath or protracted loss or impairment of the function of any bodily organ." Deadly Weapon vs. Dangerous Instrument: In New York State law the "Deadly Weapons" definition includes firearms and a number of weapons such as gravity knives, blackjacks, daggers, etc, which the law classifies as illegal for civilians to carry in public. "Dangerous instrument" is defined as "any instrument, article or substance , including a vehicle, which, under the circumstances in which it was used, attempted to be used, or threatened to be used, is readily capable of causing death or other serious physical injury. Therefore a switchblade in the pocket of a person is an illegal deadly weapon in New York while a can of oven spray in your grocery bag is not. However should a mugger use a can of oven spray to blind his victim, he can be charged with the possession of a dangerous instrument in addition to the robbery and assault charges (much like a burglar being charged with "possession of burglar's tools" if he uses a rock to break a window and gain entry). Be warned, among the NY state case annotations one finds: "there are no circumstances when justification can be a defense to the crime of criminal possession of a weapon...Justification is not a defense to illegal possession of a weapon". All else being equal, using a plain looking pocketknife that is of legal size in a self defense situation will look much less suspicious to the police and district attorney 's office than using a model that looks like a "combat knife" in the exact same circumstances. Article 35 goes on to state: "A person may not use deadly physical force upon another person unless: (a) He reasonably believes that such other person is using or is about to use deadly physical force (against himself or a third party). Even in such cases the actor may not use deadly physical force if he knows that he can, with complete safety as to himself and others, avoid the necessity of so doing by retreating: except that he is under no duty to retreat if he is: (i) In his dwelling and not the initial aggressor: (ii) A police or peace officer (acting in his official capacity) (b) He reasonably believes that such other person is committing or is about to commit a kidnapping, forcible rape, forcible sodomy or robbery: or (c) He reasonably believes that such other person is about to commit a burglary...(of an occupied dwelling) This is an area that varies widely from state to state. In some states you can stop any burglary with DPF and in others you are only justified in using DPF in an occupied dwelling at night (a daytime burglar is seeking to avoid the home's occupants. A nighttime burglar expects to encounter occupants, and is prepared for that). (Note: The "need to retreat" doctrine is one of the areas in self-defense law that varies widely from state to state). FINANCIAL: I tell my students this; "If someone attempts to assault you and you defend yourself; even when no charges are filed against you by the police, the other person can still file a lawsuit against you saying that you were really the one who started the fight. Now let's say you won the lawsuit and not one dime is awarded in the other guy's favor. Unless you have a very good insurance policy (such as an umbrella policy ) you will still have to put out something in the neighborhood of $7,000 to $10,000 to hire a lawyer to defend yourself from the lawsuit (the other guys pays nothing, his lawyer gets paid only if he wins). MORAL: I will be turning 40 this year. When I look back on all the stupid things I did when I was in my teens and twenties I think it was only my mother's prayers that kept me out of prison or a casket. Speaking to other guys my age I don't think I'm the only one who feels this way. Young men have an instinctive desire once they hit a certain age to test their courage and strength. This can get them into trouble if they don't have a safe outlet for their aggression or no good male role model at home (and in my case, even when they do). As for adults doing stupid things, remember one does not have to take an I.Q. test to father children. The drunk coming at you in a bar might have small children at home who love and depend on him. If it's a choice between your kids growing up without a father and his, well your responsibility is to your own kids first, just make damn sure you have no other choice in what you do. Remember, whatever you end up doing to an attacker, you still want to be able to sleep at night afterwards. You'll sleep better knowing you did only what you had to do and no more. TACTICAL: When dealing with a street confrontation what is best legally, financially and morally also happens to be what is best tactically. The law states that you should do only as much damage to an aggressor as necessary to stop the attack or allow your escape. That is the best path to follow tactically as well. One of the principles of combat is that the second opponent you don't see is the one most likely to hurt you. In Pekiti-Tirsia we always assume that we are fighting more than one opponent, therefore we can't spend much time on opponent #1. Think of your ability to deliver techniques as ammunition in the magazine of a firearm. If you are ambushed and empty your gun into the first attacker you see, you will be in bad shape when attackers 2, 3 and 4 appear. Time is also a facture. Spend too much time pummeling bad guy # 1 and you might turn around to find bad guy # 2 standing behind you with your blood already on his knife and a wet feeling running down your back. Essentially you are under two tactical constraints on the street; Time (where are the other bad guys and how quickly can they get to you?) and Personal Endurance & Power (how much "ammo" is in your magazine and what is the caliber?). Combat firearms instructors have taught me three principles to use in a firefight. 1. When close to cover, "get to cover, then shoot". 2. When far from cover, "shoot little, move much" (towards cover). 3. And when cornered without cover, "shoot yourself a hole, then charge through it" (towards cover). Change "cover" to "escape route" and you have some good principles for hand, stick or knife combat as well. SUMMARY: In a nutshell, you can improve your odds of keeping yourself legally, financially, morally and tactically safe if you don't ask yourself "Can I do this?", but rather "Must I do this?" Do only what you must and no more. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and the Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of Eskrima Digest