Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 16:35:17 -0800 (PST)
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<<----------------   The Eskrima/FMA mailing list   ---------------->>

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Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Reflections on Teaching (Eagle556@aol.com)
   2. Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 9 #99 - 6 msgs (Eagle556@aol.com)
   3. RE: The Law (Todd Ellner)

--__--__--

Message: 1
From: Eagle556@aol.com
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 18:39:50 EST
To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net
Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Reflections on Teaching
Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net

<<< I totally disagree with you.  No insult intended, but your post misses the
 reason for teaching.  Your goal is not to make reflections of yourself.
 MacDoJo comes to mind when this happens.  MacDojo can be a formula for
 business success but the goal of every good , and often times poor, teacher
 is to guide his student toward his own enlightenment or "JKD" .>>>

Hmm perhaps I didn't use the right terminology.  And by the way thanks for 
the McDojo comparison.  A student's ability to defend themselves and their 
conduct while they are practitioners do reflect in part on their instructors. 
 You are a student of Guro Dan and as such your ability and your conduct are 
a reflection on what he has tried to impart to you.  As I said I judge an 
instructor's instructional capability mainly by how well their students 
perform.  If their students can't perform under stress then who is to blame?  
The instructor? The student?  Neither?  Both? The curriculum?  I didn't mean 
to imply that I wanted carbon copies of myself.  But their conduct and 
abilities do reflect in large part on my capabilities as an instructor.

<<<The hope is that the student takes the teacher's teaching and eclipses the 
teacher.>>>

I thought that I had said about the same thing.  In fact what I did say in 
part when I was writing about my hopes for my students was, "...are better 
instructors than I so that the art may grow, and produce students that are 
better then themselves."  But again perhaps I didn't explain my position well 
enough. 

<<<So if you are a student you have two choices.  You can color within the 
lines or eat from a very fruitful tree.>>>

I would say that this is the same philosophy as those who say that you must 
think outside the box.  While in part I agree that the more senior student 
must at some point begin to think outside the box I would also ask, If you 
have never learned what was inside the box in the first place then how can 
your thinking extend outside the box?  Under a lot of curriculums that I have 
researched and observed what you have are individuals that have no 
cohesiveness because they have never bothered with the basics.  After a few 
years of practice in the arts I have come to the realization that it all 
boils down to basics.  Nothing else works under stress unless you are a very 
high level practitioner.  Unfortunately myself and many others will never 
reach that level.  When I was in the Army the simplest ambush, assault, 
snatch, etc., was the one that most often worked.  So I try to teach the 
students in the beginning to draw within the lines and what is inside the box 
then they make their own decision as to what lines they wish to draw outside 
of and how far outside the box they wish to go.  It's their personal decision 
and I leave it up to them.  

<<<The student or instructor is rarely a measure of the teacher.>>>

As you and the other readers have probably guessed by now I would have to 
disagree strongly with this comment and I will close with that.

Take care, Rob. 

--__--__--

Message: 2
From: Eagle556@aol.com
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 19:01:42 EST
To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net
Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 9 #99 - 6 msgs
Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net

<<< Actually, we met at Suro Inay's funeral.  I enjoyed listening to all of 
the old training stories.>>>

Yes I remember, I hope that you are doing well.  Even though mine and Mike's 
paths diverged I look back at the training with him with many fond memories.  
I will always be grateful for the lessons that he imparted to me and I was 
sorry that he crossed over without the two of us patching up our differences. 
 Perhaps on the other side we will be able to do this.

<<<John Peterson showed me some old footage of you in action.>>>

Really? Man, I thought that I had gotten rid of all of those old films.  I'll 
have to talk to John about this.  :-)  Was it the one where the de cuerdas 
hits me upside the head or the one where Len cracks open my eyebrow?

<<<We're progressing from sparring to self-defense. New guys start off with 
matched weapons.  After some experience, we pair up short aluminum knife 
against an unarmed combatant.  The purpose is to develop full-speed 
proficiency of knife defense, among other weapons.>>>

Sounds like you are on a good path.  I wish you and the students well in your 
endeavors.  

<<<It's a joy to put the knife in the hands of a newbie and watch just how 
difficult it is to deal with the unpredictable. We let the guys go for 90 
second rounds that
are essentially 10 short fights.>>>

Beginning students are such a joy.  It's through them that you really come to 
the realization that you as the instructor often times learn more than your 
students.  Like Mike said through learning we teach and through teaching we 
learn. 

<<<Agreed.  But, dual knife/stick sparring or training is a lot of fun.>>>

That's very true.  Sometimes it's good just to have fun in your training 
without much thought to reality.  Again my best to you and your students and 
I wish you well in your martial arts pursuits. 

Take care, Rob

--__--__--

Message: 3
From: "Todd Ellner" <tellner@cs.pdx.edu>
To: <eskrima@martialartsresource.net>
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 16:21:40 -0800
Subject: [Eskrima] RE: The Law
Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net

Buz writes:
>  I think the legal use of force posts have been useful, though a little
>too one-size-fits-all for my tastes. For instance, my instructor is a 20
>year Navy SEAL; many of the folks training at his academy have a special
>forces background. I don't think folks heading toward a battlefield
>would be well served learning how to apply force in a US civil
>environment. I think they are a lot better off learning how to act
>quickly and decisively in a battlefield environment. They're on the
>sharp end of the US spear point; they need to train for the realities
>they are likely to encounter.

Fair enough, Buz. Soldiers operate under the rules of war while they
are on the battlefield. The training they get for combat needs to
reflect those realities.

But if they try to treat the world outside the same way they will
(quite rightfully) end up in a deep dark hole for the next 10-20.
And the protestations "I was trained to kill the enemy" will only
get them buried deeper longer. Do you know why? Do they?

The kind of training I'm talking about (e.g. through Ayoob, Messina
or similar) is conservative tactical and ethical advice suitable for
civilians - police and citizens. A good teacher will make the
distinctions. Those are the "realities they are likely to encounter"
in the regular world outside military operations and certain special
circumstances like prison wall-guard.

You give those people a little extra stuff appropriate to their
jobs. But they still have lives outside their professions. Because
of their special training and increased ability to bring deadly
force to bear they should probably get extra instruction in what
is appropriate outside their special circumstances.

>I think most other use of force questions are similarly situational.
>Running into a gent wielding a box cutter on a street corner warrants
>one type of response, running into the same gent on an airplane warrants
>another. Similarly, I suspect I would respond far differently to a
>street attack if my kids were around than if they weren't. I don't think
>there is a single right answer or approach, rather I think there is a
>continuum along which one can find many shades of gray.

In which situations would you reasonably believe that you or another
innocent person was in immediate danger of death or serious injury?
In which cases would there be no other choice for preventing that
without the use of physical or deadly physical force? Your life
depends on the answer. So do lives of your kids if they have to
grow up fatherless because daddy is in the penitentiary.

I'd suggest you investigate the literature and instruction available
on the subject. The basic questions and principles are what's
important. "Are you in immediate danger?" "Is someone else in
immediate danger?" "Is there a way to resolve the problem without
using physical force? Deadly force? Retreating?" "What are
your capabilities? His? Theirs?" And so on. It's directly related
to the sort of threat assessment that you should do in any potentially
dangerous situation.

The point is that you are responsible for what you do. If you don't
know what you are doing and why and are not prepared to justify it you
will end up in deep doo-doo. Fair enough. That's your prerogative.
But if you teach someone and they trust you to give good advice you
have a greater responsibility. You can screw up their lives and their
families' lives beyond hope of putting them back together.

-- __--__-- 
Marc writes:

>It turns out that it is the same source as Mr Bill cited but with a few
more
>details...but the devil is in the details. The challenge still stands, find
>the caveats that  -- with how the report is written up -- undermine this
>whole self-defense plea and leaves you with a possible manslaughter, or,
more
>likely assault with a deadly weapon.

[snip sections of the NY criminal code]

I especially liked the part about

>  (c) The physical force involved is the product of a combat
>by agreement not specifically authorized by law.

So if we ever get duelling laws passed again we're good to go :-)

Just to underline Marc's point in relation to Buz's...

Know what you're doing. Know why you're doing it. Have some idea
of what the law is in your jurisdiction. For instance, Oregon law
specifically says that if you use deadly force against someone
attempting to burgle a dwelling  you can present an affirmative
defense. This is not the case in other states. The differences
can be very important.


--__--__--

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