Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 19:06:53 -0800 (PST) From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 9 #126 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.8 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sender: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net List-Help: List-Post: X-Subscribed-Address: rterry@idiom.com List-Subscribe: List-Id: Inayan Eskrima / FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Today's Topics: 1. A Howl of Recognition (Marc Denny) 2. RE: RE: Disarming Techniques (Ray Terry) 3. Re: Disarms and Disarming Book (Danny Anderson) 4. RE: Eskrima digest, Vol 9 #125 Disarming (Philip Gelinas) 5. RE: RE: Disarming Techniques (Mike Casto) 6. The 10 Ultimate Martial Arts (sic) (Marc Denny) 7. More on disarms (Musilat@aol.com) 8. RE: Disarming Techniques (Marco Subias) 9. more on disarms (Ray Terry) 10. Re: Disarms (Kes41355@aol.com) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Marc Denny" To: Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 15:03:32 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] A Howl of Recognition Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net A Howl of Greeting to All: Eric, Arlan and I founded the Dog Brother over Memorial Day Weekend of 1988 ( or was it '89?). Around 1995, some 7 years and many fights and students later, I founded Dog Brothers Martial Arts. Now, some 8 years later I announce my first promotion to the rank of Guro. (Yes, I know Salty and Sled are Guros-- but that's different. They are my friends-- not my students-- and the title there is one of recognition, not certification) Although it is implied by the number of levels prior to it (Personal Trainer, Apprentice Instructor years 1-?, Senior Apprentice Instructor years 1-?) I mention the years involved to underline how seriously I regard this ranking. I first met Benjamin Rittiner of Bern, Switzerland in 1997 ('98?) when he came with a couple of students for a week of PTP (Personal Training Program). I was impressed with how sedulously he had already applied himself to the material in the Dog Brothers series and the level in it which brought to the training with me. I also was impressed by the fact that he had made sure to have some students with him so that he would have good training partners upon his return to Switzerland with whom to work the material I was showing him. Since then he has dived into DBMA with impeccability. Every vid-lesson is trained and absorbed and anything not understood is inquired about until it is; there are the continuing trips to Los Angeles for more PTP's and the travel to England and Spain to train with me at the seminars as well as privately; there is the assistance on the Attacking Blocks video as well as the video I did for Budo in Europe-- all these things have us to have substantial quality training time together. But to be a Guro in DBMA (as versus "Instructor") also means that there must be the fighting. At 145lbs he is not one of the biggest guys out there, but he has grown into one of the most respected fighters in the Dog Brothers. He fights with courage, true Dog Brother character and high technical skill. He fights well against any and all with single stick, double stick, staff and "Kali Tudo". His ascension to "Lonely Dog" is well deserved. The name "Lonely Dog" comes because he is all alone off in Switzerland (Well, not so alone-- he is producing good students which is the point of this after all) but that has not stopped him from a path of growth. A hearty woof of congratulations to my friend Guro Benjamin "Lonely Dog" Rittiner! Woof, Guro Crafty --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Ray Terry Subject: RE: [Eskrima] RE: Disarming Techniques To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 16:08:00 PST Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > << Perhaps, but then joint locks are far more useful for stand-up grappling > situations, e.g. when someone grabs you. >> > > Tying back to my previous post regarding the relationship between disarms > and joint locks ... wouldn't this same statement apply to disarms? Sorry, you lost me. A joint lock against someone grabbing you is as unlikely as disarming somone that is attacking you w/a knife??? I think not, but then again I think I'm missing your point... Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Danny Anderson" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 23:33:57 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Disarms and Disarming Book Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi All, Disarms are an integral part of any system, part, and not the whole.  I put together the book as it is a rather misunderstood action regarding how to do rather than if it important or not.  I researched the mechanics of how my teacher would do disarms as he would take the cane from you rather easy while all my classmates would push and pull, yank and jerk.  I found out by observation what he was doing and I put it to a keyboard and digital pictures.   This is basically what I did when I wrote my first book on karate sparring, American Freestyle Karate: A Guide To Sparring back in 1980.  disarms are not the end all but they are useful. Dan Anderson    ------------------------------------------------------------------------ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: Click Here --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Philip Gelinas" To: Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 18:36:57 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] RE: Eskrima digest, Vol 9 #125 Disarming Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Though I agree that disarming is not prudent for the majority of today's FMA practitioners to use in a realty based situation, we must accept a hard truth. The FMA's were not meant as a 3 x per week martial arts class. They were originally created by and for for the elite members of any tribe charged with the everyday defence of the village / tribe / family etc. No one would suggest that the method used by the SAS in England to attack the Lybian Embassy smashing through the windows while suspended from attack helecopters as a standard to be adopted by everyone. Special circumstances called for special techniques. One thing for sure, it worked in real time. How about the art of the quick draw. Most people would shoot their feet off, but I never cease to be awed at the abilities of those whoes hand - eye co-ordination works efficiently at 2 or 3 hundredths of a second. Disarms might be one of those techniques that can be explained easily but, due to the realities involved,are beyond most people's ability to execute in real time. This does not negate the technique but restricts the size of the group who won't get killed trying it. PG --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.323 / Virus Database: 180 - Release Date: 08/02/2002 --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 17:34:22 -0600 From: Mike Casto Subject: RE: [Eskrima] RE: Disarming Techniques To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net << Sorry, you lost me. A joint lock against someone grabbing you is as unlikely as disarming somone that is attacking you w/a knife??? I think not, but then again I think I'm missing your point... >> Previously, I made a statement about the relationship between the principles of joint locks and disarms. The likelihood of pulling them off is certainly different but the reason for training them is tied together ... at least in my head. Of course, I haven't checked lately, it may be out of alignment today :-) Mike --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Marc Denny" To: Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 15:52:54 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] The 10 Ultimate Martial Arts (sic) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net A Howl of Greeting to All: The Learning Channel has weekly a one hour program titled "The Ten Ultimate ----------" (fill in the blank). This Sunday night at 10:00PM east coast and west coast time (but check your local listings to be sure) the program is , , , ahem, , , , "The Ten Ultimate Martial Arts" one of which is FMA as represented by the Dog Brothers and Rick Tucci (Full Instructor under Guro Inosanto). When you see some of the other nine I trust the title of the program will be given the appropriate levity it deserves-- like so many titles in martial arts. Woof, Crafty Dog --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 19:05:16 -0500 From: Musilat@aol.com To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] More on disarms Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Ray, I dont think you're wrong for your take on disarms. I just think that art for arts sake can be a good thing for your development. We do, after all practice "martial arts". To be complete there needs to be as much emphasis on the "art" as there is on the "martial" element. When you dismiss disarms as being impractical, I think a point is being missed. It's sort of like when you try to explain to people what the FMA are about and they dismiss it by asking "when will I ever have a stick or a knife?" and you have to go on to explain that the weapons are used as a training method to develop specific attributes. The same can be said of disarms. Whether or not you use them as you've been taught, certain attributes that are learned through drilling them are more likely to come out in you art. Anyway....thats all. I'm done. Regards, Steve Kohn --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 16:44:27 -0800 From: Marco Subias Organization: disorganized To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] RE: Disarming Techniques Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Freddy wrote... "Disarming is an integral part of any weapon based system." I suspect that many people trained to use a rifle or pistol have been taught few if any disarming techniques. I didn't get learn any weapons disarms when I was taught to use an M-16 in basic training. I can't see a Marine sniper spending any time learning disarms either. I doubt that Medieval archers were, for that matter. Western style fencers don't lean disarming techniques, and I suspect that practitioners of Kendo or Kenjutsu don't either. I have never heard that people in Medieval Europe or Japan who were taught to use spears or other pole arms in war were trained in disarm techniques, though I could be wrong here. I find it hard to believe that a Swiss mercenary trained to use a relatively heavy thirty-foot pike (held in both hands) as part of a mass formation had much use for disarms. Has anyone here studied Kendo or Kenjutsu? Do they teach disarms? I'd speculate that systems produced mainly to defend against relatively short weapons used at rather short range would be more likely teach disarms, since under such conditions it would be somewhat more likely that you could grab the hand or the base of the attacker's weapon. Systems centered on the use of projectiles, or on longer weapons would probably be a lot less likely to teach disarms. A system developed to train heavily armed soldiers who fight in mass formation, with both hands full (either with a pole arm, or weapon and shield), would also tend not to focus much on disarms, I suspect. Systems meant to very quickly train fighters might also just center on getting a few very basic techniques down, and not teach disarms at all. I doubt that military bayonet systems have been concerned with disarms, for example. Marco --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Ray Terry To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 18:55:42 PST Subject: [Eskrima] more on disarms Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net More on disarms... I will add that I did learn disarms in various tactical firearms (handgun) training courses. The real purpose was to learn handgun retention, but to practice retention techniques one first learns and practices basic disarms. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Kes41355@aol.com Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 21:51:33 EST To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Disarms Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi all, Disarms....boy, that's a subject open to a lot of opinion and conjecture; here's my two cents worth.... When you consider that it is pretty unlikely for one of us to be attacked on the street by a fellow martial artist, the chances of our attacker being familiar with, and therefore prepared for, a disarming maneuver, are awfully darned slim. This greatly increases the chances for a technique to work (by the time the guy has figured out the move, it's over with). This would seem to support the use of disarms; however, faced with the options of taking the weapon away form the attacker via a disarm, or taking him completely out by hitting him (remember, this is someone bent on hurting you), I gotta go with striking. We have proven time and again in practice that a simple direct hit to the limb will cause the attacker to drop the weapon (getting whacked anywhere on the hand hurts to beat the band) and place him in extreme pain, thus serving very nicely as a disarm on the way in to finish the job. We still train the various disarms (vine, snake, etc.), but advise our students that the best disarm is the direct hit...you don't have to worry about the effectiveness, we know it works, and you do not have to tie up two hands to take away a weapon that he's holding with just one hand. Consider that last point, because it's an important one. A direct hit only takes one hand to accomplish the disarm, is much faster, and less complicated, therefore flows much more freely. The object of any encounter is to get the job done as quickly and decisively as possible. Time cannot be wasted on anything other than the most basic and efficient defense. Kim Satterfield --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. 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