Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2002 01:04:22 -0800 (PST) From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 9 #127 - 8 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.8 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sender: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net List-Help: List-Post: X-Subscribed-Address: rterry@idiom.com List-Subscribe: List-Id: Inayan Eskrima / FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Unsubscribe: Status: OR Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---------------- The Eskrima/FMA mailing list ---------------->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). http://InayanEskrima.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. DBMA Guro (Alvis W. Solis) 2. strictly principles (Nate Defensor) 3. Defanging the Dog (Marc Denny) 4. Re: disarms (Jeff Inman) 5. Re: Disarms (Danny Anderson) 6. Disarms, again (Ray Terry) 7. Re: Re: disarms (Ray Terry) 8. Disarms book (Ray Terry) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Alvis W. Solis" To: Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 21:36:43 -0600 Organization: Solis Martial Arts Academy Subject: [Eskrima] DBMA Guro Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Big Howl of Congrats to Lonely Dog!!! Woof! Alvis "Hound Dog" Solis --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Nate Defensor" To: Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 00:35:56 -0600 Subject: [Eskrima] strictly principles Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net re: an opinion on Disarms Some Internal Martial Arts like Tai-Chi & Hsing-I teach students principles of motion and principles of fighting. Yielding, flowing, pounding, & other concepts are stessed. In FMA, some of these same principles are stressed. The Art of Disarming has its own valuable principles of leverage, positioning, timing, point of no return, zero pressure, etc... IMHO, depending on instructor, style or preference, the amount of time spent on disarming techniques and principles will vary. As in Serrada, most players would prefer to spend more time doing lock and block rather than "Agaws" or "Disarms". Most of these principles have some value to the Art depending of course on syle, distance, type of weapon, and many other factors. On more than one occasion I heard Guro Dan Inosanto said "disarms are either incidental or accidental!" "Agaw"=take away, "Dakop"=catch, "Kuha"=take", and "Ipit"=trap are all principles of stick fighting/knife fighting and parts of Disarming that has its place in the art of Combat. I think of this as part of the game as in any athlete who would specialize in a facet of his/her sport. Example is Dennis Rodman who specialize in rebounding or Michael Jordan who scores in bunches or Barry Bonds whose specialty is higher slugging percentage. This is a tough call but to limit one's Art and minimize the practice of disarms is a personal preference. How important? I am opinionated. At one point my son Leo was in 4th grade, he disarmed a pair of scissors from a bully 8th grader using a figure-8 disarm/takedown that he learned from watching one of my seminars in St. Louis at Jay D'Amato's school (CMA). How much practice did he have? Probably repeated the technique hundreds of times in his 9 yr old brain and when push come to shoove, he came out on top and had the 8th grader crying for mercy on the ground in a subdued position. Another student of mine for 2 yrs. was talking on a public phone when a homeless drunk in Chicago's Uptown neighborhood took a 2" X 4" and swung a horizontal angle one. He immediately jammed the elbow/forearm, dropping the phone, and did a snake circle/strip disarm which he must've practiced hundreds of times in class. Barked at the drunk and his two buddies to take a hike before he uses the stick on them. In these two examples, disarms, whether mentally practiced or drilled in class: fortunately paid off for my son and my student. Thanks, Nate Defensor www.defensormethod.com --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Marc Denny" To: Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 07:42:18 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] Defanging the Dog Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Woof All: A couple of yips here on the disarming thread. As a long time student of Guro Inosanto I've been exposed to a fair number of disarms ;-) and I am usually the last person in the class he would call upon to demonstrate disarms yet I would say this: if you're fighting or preparing with understanding for real world situations (which often start differently than in ritual combat and create different situations too) there is great depth to be found in the body of knowledge, training methods and skills of the FMA. Personally I have pulled off many disarms (including two strips with my leg from guard). I have seen other people do so too. Of course a disproportional amount of time can be and often is spent on disarms-- perhaps as a way of kidding oneself or passing time and/or as a smokescreen for not entering into the other aspects of training-- which I understand to be the point of the critical comments-- which is a point with which I agree. Crafty Dog --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2002 15:48:44 -0700 From: Jeff Inman To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: disarms Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Ray wrote: > I have no problem with it being part of a training syllabus. My question > has been, I think, should we really spend that much time practicing a > skill that is unlikely to be useful. Or perhaps spend additional time > practicing skills with a higher degree of possible applicability? Hi Ray, I think I'm basically sympathetic with your point. (Reminds me of the inside sweep thingy.) Why train fancy techniques that have limited practicality? There are folks, as you know, who can really absorb a lot of technique and put it to use, so maybe those folks deserve to have the benefit of whatever disarm technology is available. Some sense to that. After all, as a student I want to adopt the attitude that I don't know what I don't know, so maybe the next idea will be useful somehow. I find it harder to maintain that attitude if the teacher hasn't done enough real contact to convince me that he is teaching me something that has at least worked for *him*. The disarms that I think are most worth training are the ones that are crude enough to have a chance of working against someone who doesn't give a damn about looking good -- someone violent, rigid, and anaerobic with adrenalin. Someone whose only intent is to mess me up and keep messing me up. Those are the customers that I want to control. Closing on someone with the intent of disarming them can put you at a disadvantage. You have to get control of a weapon that he is initially in control of himself, while keeping your weapon, and not giving away anything else. What I've heard said is that the way to think of disarms is as a lucky opportunity, but if you go looking for them, you're asking for trouble. Might be that training them intensely will make them easier to find, but I find those opportunities have been pretty limited in my experience. Better to expect that the other guy just has a weapon. Stay in control of your own game. If you close, it shouldn't be to get a disarm. You may end up getting the disarm at the expense of really bad ground position. In fact, I'd *rather* that the other guy keeps his weapon. That way he won't be as motivated to try a desperate close. (Sun Tzu, anyone?) If he's got his weapon, then we get to keep it as a stickfight, which is where I am likely to have whatever advantages I might have. Regards, Jeff --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Danny Anderson" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2002 23:31:28 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Disarms Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net There is a difference between using escrima or arnis for self defense against an attacker and then trying to use them in "stickfighting."  When I say stickfighting, I mean as in a Dog Brothers confrontation or WEKAF sparring match and the like.  Stickfighting done by skilled competitors or fighters is like trying to catch a greased hog - damned difficult to say the least.  In self defense, however, with a person just swinging a stick at you, the percentages increase by quite a bit, IMHO. Dan Anderson ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. Click Here --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Ray Terry To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2002 16:56:23 PST Subject: [Eskrima] Disarms, again Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net So here is another thought... When I think and talk disarms (in this thread), I've been thinking blade disarms. I note that others seem to be thinking stick. Nothing wrong with that, just an observation. Back to the old 'is Eskrima a stick or blade art'? Yes it is both. But I first tend to think of it as a blade art. Others probably think of it first as a stick art. Thus all my comments/points about disarm training were made with a blade attack in mind. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: disarms To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2002 18:39:22 PST Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > In fact, I'd *rather* that the other guy keeps his weapon. That > way he won't be as motivated to try a desperate close. (Sun Tzu, > anyone?) If he's got his weapon, then we get to keep it as a > stickfight, which is where I am likely to have whatever advantages > I might have. Umm, very interesting comment. A view I hadn't previously considered. I'll have to maul {sic} that one over a bit. And here I thought all you DB types were just half-wits like Crafty... :) Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray Terry To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2002 18:56:37 PST Subject: [Eskrima] Disarms book Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net BTW, hopefully my disarm comments did not come across as an attack in any way/shape/form on Mr. Anderson's ebook. IMHO we need more info published on the FMAs, not less. It was just that the review of the book that was so kindly posted to the list made me think (yes, I know, a real surprise) and start the thread. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and the Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of Eskrima Digest