Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 06:47:09 -0700 (PDT) From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 9 #129 - 7 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.8 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sender: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net List-Help: List-Post: X-Subscribed-Address: rterry@idiom.com List-Subscribe: List-Id: Inayan Eskrima / FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Today's Topics: 1. Re: Disarms and last post by Ray Terry in Vol. 9 #127 (Ray Terry) 2. RE: Disarming Techniques in different arts (Mike Casto) 3. Re: disarming (Ernest Westbrook) 4. Visualization (Michael Koblic) 5. 10 ultimate MAs (Michael Koblic) 6. Pekiti-Tirsia Kali Combat Skills Seminar in Portland. (william schultz) 7. Disarming techniques (Marco Subias) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Disarms and last post by Ray Terry in Vol. 9 #127 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2002 19:24:32 PDT Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > I personally like paracticing disarms to increase my sensitivity and > leverage training. Truth be known, I like working them too... :) Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2002 20:52:34 -0500 From: Mike Casto Subject: RE: [Eskrima] Disarming Techniques in different arts To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net << I think when you learn the entirety of a system like FMA, you get to the point where you reach the "incidental and accidental" techniques like disarms. By that point, you've already practiced and ingrained say 85% of the likely scenarios and you look for techniques for the other 15%. I'm sure someone said "hey, I could make him lose his weapon here, then I'd be at a tremendous advantage" and it became part of the system. >> LOL ... reminds me of something a friend of mine said, "We spend a year learning to beat 80% of the populace. We spend the next 5 - 10 years learning to beat another 19%. We spend the rest of our lives learning to beat that final 1%." Mike --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Ernest Westbrook" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 02:04:31 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Re: disarming Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Just a couple of comments on the disarming thread.  First I want to congradulate, Dan Anderson on writing his book on disarming and also Jerome Barber for writing a very good review without the hype that so often accompanies reviews. "Danny Anderson" wrote the following: >There is a difference between using escrima or arnis for self >defense against an attacker and then trying to use them in >"stickfighting."  When I say stickfighting, I mean as in a Dog >Brothers confrontation or WEKAF sparring match and the like.  >Stickfighting done by skilled competitors or fighters is like trying >to catch a greased hog - damned difficult to say the least.  In self >defense, however, with a person just swinging a stick at you, the >percentages increase by quite a bit, IMHO. That fairly well says it all.  But as I remember an earlier post, you did acknowledge that disarming is not the end all and be all of an arnis-eskrima-kali system.  Although I am paraphrasing your comments, I believe that we are in general agreement, that idsarming is a skill that can be taught and your book is intended to explain how it can be done.  Ray Terry, commented as follows: >So here is another thought... > >When I think and talk disarms (in this thread), I've been thinking >blade disarms. I note that others seem to be thinking stick. Nothing >wrong with that, just an observation. >Back to the old 'is Eskrima a stick or blade art'? Yes it is both. But >I first tend to think of it as a blade art. Others probably think of it >first as a stick art. Thus all my comments/points about disarm >training were made with a blade attack in mind.  Very well put and it goes to the heart of at least one school of thought on disarming... just cut of the opponent's hand/arm and he is 'dis-armed'.  Blade arts and applications make that a very simple proposition and few would disagee with the effectiveness of the bladed disarm. On the other hand, I believe that Mr. Anderson and Sikal both have a very good point, disarming is a skill can come in handy and it does follow most if not all of the principle of joint locking.  Therefore, I see teaching disarming as adding to and supplimenting joint lock training.  In actual fights, I never sought out a joint locks or disarms, but I would much rather have the skills for both that not.  Since fighting is dynamic we must be as prepared as possible for whatever happens.  As a number of people are so fond of saying: "S*%# happens..."; in my case I am working on taking advantage of that happening if possible and make the "bad thing" happen to the other guy.  If it is a disarm or a joint lock that saves my body and allows me to go home that night in one piece... I will probably not worry too much about where the other guy went... home or hospital. EBrook THE Wicked Western Warlock ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: Click Here --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Michael Koblic" To: "Eskrima digest" Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2002 20:19:11 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] Visualization Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net "At one point my son Leo was in 4th grade, he disarmed a pair of scissors from a bully 8th grader using a figure-8 disarm/takedown that he learned from watching one of my seminars in St. Louis at Jay D'Amato's school (CMA). How much practice did he have? Probably repeated the technique hundreds of times in his 9 yr old brain " This is an interesting observation. How much does visualization contribute to mastering a technique in absence of the opportunity to practise it? (quite a lot IMHO). Mike Koblic, Campbell River, BC --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Michael Koblic" To: "Eskrima digest" Cc: "Christine" Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2002 20:34:51 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] 10 ultimate MAs Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Commiseration to the Dog Brothers for placing only ninth on the list of the 10 Ultimate Martial Arts (see Learning Channel, Today). Still, you beat out BJJ which is something (such "inferior" arts as silat never made the list!). If a humble soke of Daikon Do (which incidentally did not make the list either!) may advise on placing higher next time: 1) Get an unseen force (equivalent of ki, would that be dog-breath?) 2) Quit this nonsense of trying to prove your art in combat - it must be so lethal that you dare not fight anyone lest you killed them accidentally with your left earlobe strike. 3) Spirituality, spirituality, spirituality... Mike Koblic, Campbell River, BC The author has no opinion on which martial art is superior to all others and will not participate in another boring thread on the subject. The author did intend to point out that the said TV program was crap, hopefully in a funny way. This disclaimer has no legal force in states of Alaska and Hawaii. --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: 7 Apr 2002 20:54:19 -0700 From: "william schultz" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Pekiti-Tirsia Kali Combat Skills Seminar in Portland. Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net The Mongrel Combative Arts Club of Portland Oregon is proud to present: PEKITI-TIRSIA KALI FILIPINO BLADE FIGHTING SYSTEM EDGED WEAPONS / IMPACT WEAPONS / EMPTY HANDS ***COMBAT SKILLS SEMINAR*** conducted by Master Instructor Tim Waid Pekiti-Tirsia Kali is a close-quarter, in-fighting combat system against multiple opponents based on the use of the Blade. Pekiti-Tirsia is a system of complete strategies and tactics utilizing all close quarters weaponry, at all ranges, that provide protection from strikes and attacks, destruction of opponents weapons, and domination of any combat or self defense situation. The Pekiti-Tirsia system of Kali originates from the province of Negros Occidental in the Philippines and was formulated by the Tortal family of Negros and Panay islands. The family patriarch, Conrado B. Tortal, passed this system and its attributes onto his only grandson, and sole heir, GRAND TUHON Leo Tortal Gaje, Jr. Grandmaster Gaje is a leading professionally recognized authority on Filipino martial arts, military and law enforcement tactical training and was featured in the popular Calibre Press video SURVIVING EDGED WEAPONS, critically acclaimed as the finest law enforcement training video ever made. Today, Pekiti-Tirsia is trained and executed in combat and survival by military operators, law enforcement officers, and citizens across the free world. The seminar will include an overview of the Pekiti-Tirsia system with instruction on the strategy and tactics of combat bladefighting with solo Kalis/Baston, Daga/Dagaso, and Pangamut/Empty-Hands. Please bring rattan sticks/training blades, rattan,rubber,or aluminum training knives and eye protection. MATAAS na GURO Timothy D. Waid is a certified Master Instructor of the Pekiti-Tirsia Kali System and the Director of SURVIVAL EDGE SYSTEMS/Pekiti-Tirsia Tactical Training Institute which conducts advanced tactical training programs for Military Special Operations Forces and Law Enforcement agencies worldwide. Guro Waid is a private student of Grand Tuhon Gaje, and has extensive experience in the Republic of the Philippines where he currently serves as a Tactical Training Instructor to the Armed Forces of the Philippines, Philippine National Police, government agencies and private business. WHEN: Saturday May 25th TIME: 9am to 5pm (with a one hour break) WHERE: Portland, OR. New location being finalized. Original location is no longer available. COST: $65.00 in advance. $75.00 at the door. No refunds after May 15th. REGISTRATION: For registration forms, please contact William Schultz at 503-848-5679 or E-mail your request to wshpunyo@spiritone.com Don't forget to include your full name, address, and telephone number. Best regards, William Schultz PCMA/MCAC --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2002 23:44:54 -0700 From: Marco Subias Organization: disorganized To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Disarming techniques Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Marco, The disarming techniques are there: Western fencing - In the earlier manuals. Silver, for example, speaks of "grippes", Marazzo (?spelling) has knife disarms, Meyer has sword disarms. Kenjitsu - Numerous disarms in various schools. Also bo and jojitsu (long and short staff) have disarms. Bayonet - Russian arts which focus more on bayonet have a number of bayonet disarms. I think when you learn the entirety of a system like FMA, you get to the point where you reach the "incidental and accidental" techniques like disarms. By that point, you've already practiced and ingrained say 85% of the likely scenarios and you look for techniques for the other 15%. I'm sure someone said "hey, I could make him lose his weapon here, then I'd be at a tremendous advantage" and it became part of the system. When you look back at all you've learned and try to place it in it's proper order in a system, it becomes difficult to place disarms. You probably learned to visually and kinestetically recognize the "place" the disarm could happen well before you learned the technique. I'm most familiar with Pekiti. In methods like "dakup y punyo" (punyo sumbrada), five attacks, inside and especially outside tapping, break in break out, you become familiar with the placement of the weapons before you even learn there could be a disarm there. I think the 'counter for counter' disarms is also an important training method - an example of not giving up even if you lose your weapon. It also becomes weapon retention. The question is often asked not of learning a system over long periods of time, but of teaching a "basic training" course in the weapon. For the rifle, in your example, any time you spend on disarms in a basic training stituation is time away from shooting practice. If you're going to teach close quarters at all in that short period of time, you teach aggressive attacks rather than intricate disarms. Andy OK, you can provide some examples from various weapons based systems that have disarms, but the original claim was "Disarming is an integral part of any weapon based system." If you can show that three European sword styles had disarms, it does not prove that most or all such systems did. Europeans used various types of swords under a variety of different conditions, so showing that a few systems used disarms doesn't prove that all systems did. Certainly modern fencing systems don't seem to teach them. The same goes for Russian bayonet systems; if they do have disarms, it does not prove that all bayonet systems teach disarms, or even that all Russian systems do. As to not initially realizing that disarms are there during sumbrada, I agree. I liked your observations about "placing" disarms, but in my training (and I suspect your also) disarms were taught separately from sombrada, at first, and later integrated. The disarms were clearly recognizable as part of the system from early on in training. As to disarms not being taught in a basic training situation because time has to be dedicated to bringing up skills seen as more important to recruits, I agree. In my earlier post I speculated that systems meant to impart fighting skill in a very short period might not teach disarms. I also speculated that projectile based weapons systems were less likely to focus on using disarms, as well as systems that have employed very long weapons, like the pike, and that in some cases where both hands were occupied in holding an unwieldy weapon, disarms might also not be taught. I find it hard to believe, for example, that a Roman who held in one hand a huge shield that was meant to be locked up with others to form a shield wall, and in the other a short sword that was meant to stab through the thin gaps in that wall, focused much or at all on disarming methods. Marco --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and the Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of Eskrima Digest