Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 09:50:29 -0700 (PDT) From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 9 #136 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.8 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sender: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net List-Help: List-Post: X-Subscribed-Address: rterry@idiom.com List-Subscribe: List-Id: Inayan Eskrima / FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Today's Topics: 1. Charles Juseau (POWERFACTOR71839@aol.com) 2. Police Training / Surviving Edged Wepaons (Uli Weidle) 3. Re: surviving edged weapons (Bladewerkrr@aol.com) 4. Steve Kohn (Buddy Tripp) 5. [The_Dojang] Re: Use of Deadly Force (Ray Terry) 6. Deadly Force (Randall Sexton) 7. Re: Police Training / Surviving Edged Wepaons (Ray Terry) 8. Weapon of Choice (Seraksatu@aol.com) 9. Mas Buddy, Energy waisted (Seraksatu@aol.com) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: POWERFACTOR71839@aol.com Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 23:24:47 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Charles Juseau Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Does anyone on the list have knowledge of a Charles Juseau?? I understand he is a silat man from the French Special Forces. Thanks, Tom Furman --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 14:47:19 +0200 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net From: Uli Weidle Subject: [Eskrima] Police Training / Surviving Edged Wepaons Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Ray, I wrote in ED Vol 9 #134: > I don't feel that the information about tactics and methods that police > officers actually apply should be sold to everybody on the street. and Ray Terry responded in ED Vol 9 #135: > Sorry, but that is highly inappropriate. Well that’s what you feel. We can’t discuss that… ;-) Further you wrote: > This material should be available to all, not just LEOs. > All, assuming they are not felons, have the right to learn > this material. It is good to read your opinion about the topic, because the meeting of different opinions in an atmosphere of mutual respect create thought and understanding. For the record: The Pekiti-Tirsia Material as it is taught by Grand Tuhon Gaje and me is completely available to everybody. But it is taught personally in small groups, so that we know the persons that we are teaching. We teach civilians, security personal, police and military in a way, that they get the knowledge and training methods tailored for their specific situation and needs. As a matter of fact a police officer has to face situations differently than a civilian person. Sure there is an overlap in methods, strategies and tactics, but the options and tools of a police officer are different than for civilians - at least here in Europe. Now if it comes to application of police strategies and tactics. I feel that a police officer, while doing his job, should have every advantage on his or her side. If there is need for that, this also includes the advantage of proper setup and surprise. Ray, I agree with you completely that a law-abiding citizen should have opportunity to learn everything that helps him or her to live long and enjoy personal freedom. But I don’t see a need for this person to understand special group tactics of police units. Maybe we disagree because it is just a misunderstanding of words. What you mean when you write “this material” might be different from what I consider “police training”. Specific police training would be just a waste of time for most civilians. The feedback that I receive from our special training for law enforcement officers here in Germany is, that it is always highly appreciated, that we support them by sharing our experience. Now in personal conversation the officers often also express their worries, that by making Kali Knife Fighting methods available to the public, we create part of the problem of the officers - and I can understand the worries of these people, because there have been incidents in Germany that videos teaching knife fighting have been found in the places of people that attacked or threatened police officers with knifes. Ray, again I totally agree with you, when you write “All, assuming they are not felons, have the right to learn this material.” Where we disagree is how to handle your assumption (“assuming they are not felons”). With a commercially available video it is just very hard to control, if the buyer is a felon or not. That is one reason why I prefer personal instruction. But maybe we have to agree that we disagree in that topic. Uli Weidle http://www.pekiti-tirsia.de --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Bladewerkrr@aol.com Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 08:59:44 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: surviving edged weapons Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net : << Now as far as a sequel video to Surviving Edged Weapon is concerned, I > don't feel that the information about tactics and methods that police > officers actually apply should be sold to everybody on the street. >> While I have a great deal of respect for law enforcement, if the events of 9 11 proved nothing else it is the truth ti the old saying "where's a cop when you need one." A small percentage of the population can never hope to protect that entire population without some help from those it seeks to protect. We saw the difference that resistance can make when the plane went down in PA. I think they should show such tapes as the in flight movie. Bear --__--__-- Message: 4 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net From: Buddy Tripp CC: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 08:59:22 -0400 Subject: [Eskrima] Steve Kohn Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Buddy, > >I do respect Pak Victor as an elder. I just don't see any harm in disagreeing >with him because of his age/experience. > >Any knowledge is subject to question. > >Regards, >Steve Kohn Steve, But you did not disagree with any knowlege that Pak presented as he presented none. He merely responded to what he perceived as an insult to silat. It seemed to me that you presumed to give him a lesson in humilty and Adat. Since you use the word silat in your moniker, I (perhaps wrongly) assumed you understand what adat and hormat mean. For us in the VDT lineage these are not just words but ideas by which we strive to live. I might, in private, disagree with my Dad about a subject in which I am knowleable. But I would not presume to correct his behavior in front of others. This is just proper hormat. Buddy --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Ray Terry To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 7:10:49 PDT Subject: [Eskrima] [The_Dojang] Re: Use of Deadly Force Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Cross-posting something from the_dojang list given it fits in a bit with the LEO vs. civilian training issue. Ray Forwarded message: Having served as a Marine (Force Recon) and as an FBI Special Agent (Defensive Tactics and Firearms Instructor) for 13 years, I can say that use of deadly force for a law enforcement officer (LEO) is not different for a civilian. After all, we are all subjected to the same laws whether they be federal, state, or local. The real issue is understanding the use of "escalation of force continuum" which begins with what is referred to as " (command) presence", then verbal commands, use of personal weapons (martial arts skills), impact weapons (baton, sticks, staffs etc.), then use of a firearm (deadly force). Now, even though personal weapons, impact weapons and firearm are items on the continuum in the end it is a question of degree, i.e., the amount of force necessary to end a conflict which can be problematic in a court of law. The courts must be convinced that it was "self-defense" not "self-offense". All sorts of things comes into play; intent, contributing factors etc. I was once sued in civil court for breaking a subjects arm with a round house kick. He sued me even though he was convicted felon and had a lead pipe in his hand which was bound for my head. This all occurred while performing my duties as a federal agent. To make matters worse, my superiors repramanded me for not shooting this guy - they weren't paying me to do martial arts. The lead pipe was a deadly weapon which should have been dealt with, with deadly force. So, I have had first hand experience with this. I am happy that you guys are discussing this very real issue given the legtigious culture we now live in. the legalities of "self-defense" is an important part of my curriculum. Firearms (tactical shooting) and protective services is also a part of my curriculum. I have added these aspects to my curriculum because this isn't medieval Korea... Keep the discussion going. Ian A. Cyrus, Headmaster International Chosondo Federation Choson Kwon Bup - Hapkido - Taekwondo 7252 Valley Ave Philadelphia, PA 19128 215-483-5057 _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Randall Sexton" To: Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 07:53:46 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] Deadly Force Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net In the Journal of Asian Martial Arts, Vol. 10 & 11, 2001, there is a two part article on "Civil and Criminal Liability: The Martial Artist's Potential." It's written by a MA and lawyer. Randall Sexton www.laughinghara.com --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Police Training / Surviving Edged Wepaons To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 7:20:52 PDT Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Maybe we disagree because it is just a misunderstanding of words. What you > mean when you write “this material” might be different from what I consider > “police training”. Specific police training would be just a waste of time > for most civilians. Perhaps. In your mind, how so? > The feedback that I receive from our special training for law enforcement > officers here in Germany is, that it is always highly appreciated, that we > support them by sharing our experience. Now in personal conversation the > officers often also express their worries, that by making Kali Knife > Fighting methods available to the public, we create part of the problem of > the officers - and I can understand the worries of these people, because > there have been incidents in Germany that videos teaching knife fighting > have been found in the places of people that attacked or threatened police > officers with knifes. Many (most?) of the officers here want law abiding citizens to be able to defend themselves, instead of the LEO having to clean up the mess afterwards. ?? Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Seraksatu@aol.com Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 10:20:03 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Weapon of Choice Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Greetings mas Ray, Did not realized you are a A1911 person, I had a Glock and got rid of it. Good Gun mind you, does not fit me. In shooting, I have found the double tap to be extremely fast with the A1911 Most folks in the Academy have these fine tools The one exercise "The Presidente" leaves the man from the boys. Accurate shooting the key to winning. Mr. Predovich a good friend has the record of 4 seconds, Dr. Chuck Blome has it at 7 seconds and I am still trailing at 9 seconds. We do the the "Presidente" at 25 feet. For information: The "Presidente" is a test of skills. 6" diameter steel plate, Six (6) of them The object of the Skill exercise is, your back is turned to them. The match Buzzer go's of, you turn and double Tap two rounds in every Plate, the first Three (3) plates. De-Clipp your weapon, Re-Clipp and fire the Next 6 rounds into the last Three (3) Plates. The Match Buzzer will record your last Shot. The object, time counts when all the Plates are hit. The Key of this exercise is to simmulate conditions that will be needed in time of need. You can also do the exercise with Twelve (12) Pepper Poppers, altough this makes the "Presidente" a bit harder. I have tried the same exercise with a Glock, time got slower. Hard to beat the soft pull of barely a one pound touch on a trigger, a true shooters weapon. Safety a hard rule, any AD takes you off the Firing line and out of the exercise for the day. Sometimes when your schedule and time allows, we can go and have some exercise of this nature. I have some friend in law Enforcement and my comrads from the USMC, and we do some bio feed back exercises. As each weapon is a martial weapon, so is the A1911 and simular tools use as a final deterent. My Very best and hormat Pak Vic << FWIW, I have more than one Glock. But I have triple that number of 1911s. Was it Mae West that said, "Too much of a good thing is... wonderful!"? Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Seraksatu@aol.com Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 11:09:37 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Mas Buddy, Energy waisted Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Selamat and Greetings Mas Buddy How are you? great to see you on the Escrima Forum. You know I really enjoyed visiting Mas Bernie Langan and seeing Mr. Sonny Umpad. Great tactiscian/teacher and practitioner with such a humble and real spirit. That man is also a great weapon maker, and recommend his work to anyone. When I visited him, he showed me his weaponnery he made with a minimal of tools he had. Great to see, some of the Philipino Practitioners sharing their trade and Art with many worthy of carrying the Arts with Honor, as some may wish to be in that Catagory. About the answer you gave to Mr. Steve Kohn , good one, from his replies shows, it has gone on a deaf ear to even give your energy. If something is red and it is, he mostly comes back and says it is blue, so waisted energy His answer may say he has the respect but his replies shows his arrogance with a definite lack of Humilty and in question for sure, and I could be wrong, only an oppinion. Remember 2000 years ago, the six faults and the fall of man as written by the famous Roman Statesman One of the line items was "Forcing and dictating to others in what you believe" There could be a definite fit It is really not worth to even to give answers or creedence anymore. I believe you have better luck in speaking to a wall. For one I will totally ignore any posting he may now do or in the furture and that is address to me and hit my delete key. Waist of my energy. But is is good to see folkses opinion, it gives us as a people free speech As you and I belive in our constitution, this is the greater part of living in our country. We can tell folks to take a hike, other countries you may not able to do that. And does our Freedom we as Americans love. My best and Hormat Pak Vic --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and the Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of Eskrima Digest