Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2002 01:43:31 -0700 (PDT) From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 9 #153 - 4 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.8 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sender: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net List-Help: List-Post: X-Subscribed-Address: rterry@idiom.com List-Subscribe: List-Id: Inayan Eskrima / FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Today's Topics: 1. Pain compliance (Patrick Davies) 2. Re: Pain compliance, part II (Kes41355@aol.com) 3. Hmmm... (Eric Taimanglo) 4. GT Leo Gaje seminar - Montreal (Loki Jorgenson) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Patrick Davies To: 'eskrima digest' Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 09:36:03 +0100 Subject: [Eskrima] Pain compliance Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net William: I have always felt that the term "pain compliance" was a dangerous misnomer. Some people it will work on just fine, others will just give you that silly crazy man smile as they keep comin for you. Snip I agree with the folks who advocate sensory overload (multiple strike), combined with compliance techniques that will allow gravity to introduce them to Mr. Pavement in an overwhelming manner. My knees and/or elbows will quickly re-enforce the meeting once he's on the ground. I want to make sure that I am going to walk away, and that he is down for the count. Chin na techniques just don't work on everyone---least likely the people you want them to work on. Yes, yes , yes. I can picture now that absolutely wonderful knee strike that in the gym would have put him out of training for a month. The b'strd didn't even wince and I was in the middle of a large pub brawl with three of us to get them all out. Then there that thai kick that knocked the guy off his feet but he just got backup and came back at me again and again and again. I once lay in a kesegatame type position although the fighter was on his front consistently choking him out(or into passivity) and moving him a couple of yards along the bar floor before him coming too and initiating the conflict & process again. Eventually we made it outside where he then came back at us but with the room on the street there was more striking involved. I could go on..... If the person is of the mindset even without drink or drugs, they can keep coming at you no matter what happens. As a result I would, should I ever put someone down, stand right over them so the first thing they see when they look up is me right there. For most that is the end of the fight but for those once in a while specials I was in a position to continue and be in control. Doesn't help though with Joe Public who when they testify sincerely see you as the aggressor so the legal issue should always be a consideration. Stopping techniques for door personnel have to look passive while being extremely direct. We all know a finger strike to just below the adams apple has great stopping power but how to make it look like you just put your hand out to stop someone (against their chest) so that Joe Public tells Mr Police Officer that you were being clam and in control is the art. Stand up Mr McYoung, your time has come................ ; ) Pat Davies --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Kes41355@aol.com Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 12:18:20 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Pain compliance, part II Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi all, The use of pain compliance is a hot topic among LEO's and CO's, mainly because we all have ran into the occasional inmate/arrestee that pain compliance will absolutely not work on. I vividly remember one young man being brought to lockup one night, who had been arrested for possession of crack cocaine. Possession with intent to deal carries a hefty penalty in Indiana, so during the police pursuit, the young man, who weighed all of 140 lbs., swallowed about 10 rocks of crack to avoid the dealing charge (he also would have been tagged with a habitual offender charge). Needles to say, by the time the police brought him to us, he was so jacked up that he had completely destroyed the inside of the police cruiser, was handcuffed, shackled, bound with rope, and had been heavily maced, and was STILL uncontrollable. Five police officers carried him into the lockup, (big, burly guys) and they had one hell of a time getting him through the door. Several confinement officers went to assist, including myself, and pain compliance was out of the question. We just sat on him until he began to calm down. Funny thing, the only reason he did begin to calm down was that he was a regular customer of ours, he knew all of us, and felt safe with us in jail. I've dealt with drunks going after my coworkers, that I had to literally sit on to control, (again, my arm bars and pressure point attacks were useless), extremely angry inmates enjoying a massive adrenaline dump that made them immune to any pain, and mentally unstable inmates that walked through the most painful of holds with little to no effort. I have also dropped very large badass inmates with arm bars, finger locks, ankle locks, etc., and manipulated them into position to be cuffed many, many times, so pain compliance is a valid defense...you are able to get the inmate to do your bidding without inflicting serious injury (most pain compliance techniques do no real damage, they just hurt to beat the band). I had a serious fight break out in front of me recently, in which one inmate had another pinned to the floor, and was inflicting a lot of damage. An officer who weighs in at around 275 was unable to budge him using raw strength, but when I applied a twisting head lock, the inmate popped right up. I then went to a double chicken wing arm lock, took him down, and we cuffed him. The inmate was so pumped on adrenaline that he foamed at the mouth for about 5 minutes afterwards, but here was a situation when pain compliance prevented grave injury to the other inmate and possibly staff. What's my point? I will still attempt pain compliance as a first line of defense; it works much more often than it doesn't, but as in any martial art, you must be prepared to flow to something else when it becomes apparent that you aren't getting anywhere. A lot of folks get a little freaked when the technique they used successfully so many times in the school only draws an annoyed stare from a pissed off inmate; they instantly panic, and become useless in a crisis situation. Any technique or methodology will fail at any given time, but a good, competent, thinking martial artist will understand and accept that, will not lose confidence on the rare occasion that his favorite technique fails, and readily flow to something else. The lives of LEO's and CO's depend upon this ability; those who cannot adjust wash out, which is good, because there is nothing more dangerous that a partner you have no faith in to cover your back when the stuff hits the fan. Kim Satterfield --__--__-- Message: 3 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 11:29:20 -0700 From: "Eric Taimanglo" Organization: Lycos Mail (http://www.mail.lycos.com) Subject: [Eskrima] Hmmm... Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I lived in the P.I. from Kindergarten up to High School, both on Clark Air Force Base, and in the surrounding barrios and subdivisions. I think that, during the advent of Cory Aquino and the whole people power thing(I remember everyone being sent home in the middle of class), the Filipino people (especially the impoverished)) felt like they were finally getting what they wanted; they ousted "McCoy"(ol' Ferdie Marcos), and got rid of the bastions of "American Imperialism"(as I remember reading in a newsrag bought in the palengke.), and everyone was celebrating...not unlike the positive pulling together that we have seen here in the U.S after Sept 11th. Now, we are seeing U.S. SpecOps personnel conducting training exercises for Philippine Troopers, Imelda Marcos has come back to the P.I., and is back in (gasp)politics. Hmmm. With regards to the U.S. training Philippine Troops, I beg your pardon, but a PFC in the Philippine Army has actually fought and/or killed guerillas, both in the NPA and the MNLF, probably knows the jungle better, and a clean shaven haole Senior NCO from our deified Green Berets is gonna show HIM a thing or two about counter guerilla warfare? It'd be like a WEKAF champion being sent to conduct a seminar for a group of rattan hardened old eskrimadors, drinking their Ginebra and Redhorse, and smoking thier rank cigarettes. Granted, we don't have the whole picture when it comes to what the SpecOps community has or hasn't done, but, come on... Now, we are talking about a possible base of operations. Hmmm... sounds to me like a broke up couple who meet again years later and exchange phone nnumbers and have dinner "just as friends"...tee heee.. See Dave Matthews Band live or win a signed guitar http://r.lycos.com/r/bmgfly_mail_dmb/http://win.ipromotions.com/lycos_020201/splash.asp --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Loki Jorgenson To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 18:18:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Eskrima] GT Leo Gaje seminar - Montreal Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Details for the Montreal/CANADA Pekiti-Tirsia seminar featuring Grand Tuhon Leo T. Gaje jr. (first time in N.America since 1988) and marking the 20th year of P-T in Canada. June 22-28, 2002 http://www.pekiti-tirsia.org:8080/GTmontreal2002.pdf BTW - Montreal is a fabulous city to visit, especially in the summer. And the Canadian dollar makes it very affordable. AND... the world famous Montreal Jazz Festival starts on June 27 (to July 8).... what could better? -- maelstrom \ Loki Jorgenson martial _ \ Pekiti-Tirsia kali loki@maelstromcore.com arts / O_/ Dog Brothers MA www.maelstromcore.com \ Inosanto Academy (604) 837-0240 \ silat Jati Wisesa --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and the Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of Eskrima Digest