From eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net Sat May 4 01:28:05 2002 Received: from cuprel1.hp.com (cupona1.hp.com [15.13.176.10]) by hpwsrt.cup.hp.com (8.9.3 (PHNE_18979)/8.9.3 SMKit7.02) with ESMTP id BAA06725 for ; Sat, 4 May 2002 01:27:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smyrna.cisto.com (smyrna.cisto.com [65.194.192.129]) by cuprel1.hp.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 537D1208E for ; Sat, 4 May 2002 00:48:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 20457 invoked from network); 4 May 2002 07:49:42 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO smyrna.cisto.com) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 4 May 2002 07:49:42 -0000 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 9 #155 - 5 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.8 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sender: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net List-Help: List-Post: X-Subscribed-Address: rayreq@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com List-Subscribe: List-Id: Inayan Eskrima / FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Unsubscribe: Message-Id: <20020504074856.537D1208E@cuprel1.hp.com> Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 00:48:56 -0700 (PDT) Status: RO Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---------------- The Eskrima/FMA mailing list ---------------->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). http://InayanEskrima.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. experience in the real world and US military involvement in the Philippines (Jesse Manibusan) 2. Fw: Eric Taimanglo's Hmmm... (Jay de Leon) 3. Re: Pain Compliance and Follow Ups (Georgios Christou) 4. Re: Pain compliance (Marc Macyoung) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2002 10:29:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Jesse Manibusan To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] experience in the real world and US military involvement in the Philippines Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Message: 2 > From: Kes41355@aol.com > Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 12:18:20 EDT > To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Pain compliance, part II > Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > --- SNIP > > What's my point? I will still attempt pain compliance > as > a first line of > defense; it works much more often than it doesn't, but > as > in any martial art, > you must be prepared to flow to something else > when it > becomes apparent that > you aren't getting anywhere. A lot of folks get a little > freaked when the > technique they used successfully so many times in > the > school only draws an > annoyed stare from a pissed off inmate; they instantly > panic, and become > useless in a crisis situation. Any technique or > methodology will fail at any > given time, but a good, competent, thinking martial > artist will understand > and accept that, will not lose confidence on the rare > occasion that his > favorite technique fails, and readily flow to something > else. Yes, this is a good point. But you have a lot of experience dealing with the real thing. Even people who have the pysical ability to deal with the real thing yet have no experience may fall apart and become ineffective because of the panic factor. If an individual is dealing with the panic factor for the very first time in a real situation, thats a recipe for disaster. Thats a tough thing to overcome. To not be overcome with fear when your favorite technique #1, #2 & #3 have all failed takes some serious training, I think. I haven't had the experience with altercations like you have but I have been in many situations scared s&*tless and the only thing that pulls me out of it safely is TRAINING and REPETITION. Heaven forbid my mind jumps into the fray and starts rationalizing. At least for me, as long as there is no thought/brain involved, I seem to be OK and not likely to fall apart. I wonder if our other readers have this "auto-pilot" mode also. Or are most of our readers "fully conscious" and thinking consciously of every move they make? I know I don't. > Message: 3 > To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 11:29:20 -0700 > From: "Eric Taimanglo" > Organization: Lycos Mail (http://www.mail.lycos.com) > Subject: [Eskrima] Hmmm... > Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > ---SNIP > Hmmm. With regards to the U.S. training > Philippine Troops, I beg your pardon, but a PFC in the > Philippine Army has actually fought and/or killed > guerillas, both in the NPA and the MNLF, probably > knows > the jungle better, and a clean shaven haole Senior > NCO > from our deified Green Berets is gonna show HIM a > thing > or two about counter guerilla warfare? I would agree that the PFC would know more about his Philippine jungle better. Thats a distinct advantage and our military will definately draw on that experience to make their assesment of how to handle the Abu Sayaf. However, our SpecOps community are experts at doing unconventional warfare in all terrain in any part of the world. That doesn't make them GOD and most of them are actually humble enough to admit that, believe it or not. These aren't Rambo's but professionals. They know their strangths and weaknesses. They are mature soldiers with a mission to accomplish. I dare say that they do not go into the country thinking they are going to solve every problem nor are they pompous enough to think they are better than the people they train. But make no mistake about it: our guys are GOOD. The Philippine military can learn a lot from our military. After all, they have been unsuccesful in solving their internal defense problem. We could also learn a lot from them and I hope this involvement in the southern PI will be beneficial to both. Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness http://health.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Jay de Leon" To: Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2002 09:43:25 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] Fw: Eric Taimanglo's Hmmm... Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net ----- Original Message ----- From: Jay de Leon To: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Cc: jaydeleon@cox.net Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2002 2:52 AM Subject: Eric Taimanglo's Hmmm... I not only lived in RP but also worked in the South--Cotabato to be exact. Eric Taimanglo makes some keen observations, but I would like to add a few sidebars. (1) Re the PFC in the Philippine Army, I have swigged San Miguel (with fried pusit or squid) with a few of those guys, including their officers. By the way, some of these officers were actually PMA (Philippine Military Academy, the equivalent of West Point) graduates who had gotten as savvy and battle hardened as the men they commanded. Many of these soldiers were "local," knew the dialects and the terrain, and could play the guerrilla game as well as the opposition. The U.S. training alluded to is more in the line of high tech gadgetry that the Philippine Army does not have, and that the U.S. will presumably provide--chopper warfare and tactics, satellite tracking, state of the art communications systems, etc. (2) Re "base of operations", you are again right. It looks like after some twenty odd years, Clark and Subic will be resurrected in Basilan (currently the island of choice versus General Santos?). Except there will be no bases treaty, and the enemy has a new face (terrorism), versus communism, etc. I know, I know, it is still U.S. interests and "American Imperialism." But here is the other side of the coin. When I lived in Cotabato City, the stretch of highway between Cotabato City and Gen. Santos City (then called Dadiangas) was the most dangerous stretch of highway in the province. Even army convoys got ambushed in that highway. Ocassionally, I would eat lunch at a boarding house for travelling salesmen (pharmaceutical, IBM typewriters, Singer sewing machine, etc.) Whenever I exchanged pleasantries with somebody who had just driven from Dadiangas, their standard reply was "Awa ng Diyos, walang ambush. (Thank God, there was no ambush this time.)" If the U.S. set up base in Gen. Santos City, do you think these salesmen (or the general population for that matter) will stop to analyze whether the U.S. was hunting down brigands, terrorists, rebels or even enemy thousands of miles away? All they know is, they can breathe a little easier. My kabayan Eric is right, history repeats itself. --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2002 16:25:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Georgios Christou To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Pain Compliance and Follow Ups Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi all, I've been following the pain compliance thread with great interest, and I have a few questions to those that have been in a situation where pain compliance techniques will just not work. What do you do as a follow-up? What do you do to someone which you do not want to hurt (as much as that is possible of course) but want to control, or stop (if in a self defence scenario?) Thanks, Georgios Christou Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness http://health.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Marc Macyoung" To: Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2002 21:57:47 -0600 Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Pain compliance Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Stopping techniques for door personnel have to look passive while being extremely direct. Actually, about 99% of all the bouncers I have met need to spend more time on negotiation, people skills, conflict resolution use of force standards and "drunk wrangling" skills instead of their fighting skills. Way too often you get guys who have lots of experience bullying drunks who fall apart when confronted with a heavier caliber of fighter. Unfortunately, their success pushing drunks around means that the the thing that could save them (people skills) are ignored. Like many ignored elements, when the flaw is exposed it is not only too late -- but the lesson is brutal. A standard I had was the guy who walked in and started telling me what a bad ass name taking ass kicker he was the one whose application I threw into the trash can fastest. Because that was the guy who was most likely to make a situation that might have been avoided, explode into violence. A saying I have is that "10 percent of all situations will go physical no matter what you do...it's gonna happen. That means that 90% of all situations can be talked down without violence. The operative word is CAN be talked down, that doesn't mean it will be -- especially if you refuse to learn people skills. I've met rude, obnoxious people who can take that 90% and turn it into a 100%, they will guarantee that it will turn into a fight." The reason I am such an advocate of talking, as opposed to slugging people is that the heavier calibre fighter will tear up the majority of bouncers, no matter how much they train in effective fighting techinques. You can train these people all you want and the only thing that will happen is the nasty nasty knows to hit him harder and faster. Since you can't train enough to come out unscathed against these people, talking begins to look like a reaaaaaally good idea. >We all know a finger strike to just below the adams apple has great stopping power but how to make it look like you just put your hand out to stop someone (against their chest) so that Joe Public tells Mr Police >Officer that you were being clam and in control is the art. Although I was really good at tripping and "accidentally" hitting someone in the crotch as I stumbled. I was a whole lot better at whispering something about the guy's mother's taste in herbavoires as sexual partners. That way everyone saw him swing first. Thing is, he swung when I wanted him to and, by positioning myself "just so" to leave an opening, I was also controlling where he was attacking. Gee, how hard is it to block something that you know when and where it is coming? Then came those oh so nasty ankle traps, leg kicks and foot stomps that a) weren't obvious and b) made anything I was doing up top all that much more effective at causing him to go where I wanted. All it looked like was I was blocking his hit and he fell down. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and the Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of Eskrima Digest