Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 18:49:00 -0700 (PDT) From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 9 #162 - 4 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.8 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sender: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net List-Help: List-Post: X-Subscribed-Address: rterry@idiom.com List-Subscribe: List-Id: Inayan Eskrima / FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Today's Topics: 1. Doormen, and others in the bar (phil) 2. Re: Subject: [Eskrima] Marc Macyoung (Marc Macyoung) 3. Re: Re: tips for doormen (Marc Macyoung) 4. Doorman post responses (Musilat@aol.com) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "phil" To: Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 02:56:48 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] Doormen, and others in the bar Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Some weirdness from north of the 49th parallel. I had the attention of some twits one night in a bar in the city where I live and we all had had too much to drink. They picked a fight with me caused I asked them not to bonce into the girl I was dancing with. Anyway the doormen broke it up, but let us all stay. As we were leaving I had forgotten about them as I really shouldn't have had so much to drink, but they were there when I went outside. Lot's of talk and posturing got all of us nowhere and I was getting really fed up when the alpha pulled his smokes out, put one in his mouth and leaned his head forward and in towards the flame as I held my lighter up. Luckily for he and I, the girl I was with guessed what I was going to do and stood hard against my side so I couldn't hit his exposed right jawbone, perfect target too, and all sides parted amicably. I have noticed people always lean their heads in to tkae a light off you, and they stare directly or close to it into the flame, not a strategic position. Seriously, give someone a light if you have the oppurtunity, just as they stick the smoke in, pull the light a little ways back and watch them track it. I don't smoke anymore but I always carry a lighter, it's a good hand load too! --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Marc Macyoung" To: Subject: Re: Subject: [Eskrima] Marc Macyoung Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 09:57:50 -0600 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >From Marc Animal MacYoung Steve, great list. Good solid advice all the way down. On most of them there isn't much to add except commentary of why they work. And work they do, that list should be stapled to the forehead of about 99% of the bouncers out there. Turned inward so they can read it. On this one however, I do want to throw in a tweak. It's not a disagreement, but rather a stylistic differerence I picked up along the way. >4) Be aware of empty beer bottles at the bar (good weapons). If the customer has one in his hand, rub your chin (or something like that)while you talk so you have a hand up to cover yourself. First off, if anybody asks me what my favorite fighting stance is I tell them "However I am standing at the moment." As all stances are transitional to achieve a particular goal I move into that stance for that goal. Most of what people call "fighting stances" I call, "getting ready to fight stances." That hand up against your chin does work, but you can add another layer to it. Moons past I ran a correctional center. I dealt with all levels of criminals and in various stages of their involvement with the prison system. Here's the thing, these guys were always looking for a "hole" to use to get over on us. At first they found all kinds of ways to "slip through the cracks" and we spent considerable time running around and trying to patch these "holes" in the rules, etc. That is until I learned a trick -- leave a hole. Leave an opening that is, in fact, a trap. One that if they went into, they'd get nailed. (For example we left an opening in the obvious security system, but put a camera there where it wasn't obvious. So anybody who tried to get out that way, got nailed). Interesting thing, once the criminals saw this "false" hole, they quit looking for real ones.(After they were caught, we transferred them out so they couldn't tell others). This saved us no end of grief because we then knew where the majority of attempts would be. Now if someone is thinking about punching you, do put your hand up like you were talking about, but put it on one side or the other. That leaves, half of your face exposed and an obvious target. When you see the guy positiotion himself into the zone to attack that spot you know he's looking for a fight and not a reasonable solution. Now many people upon hearing this say "are you nuts?" But my thinking has always been that if I know when, where and how an attack is going to come at me I can easily defeat it. And by positioning my hand on one side, I have almost always guaranteed how he is going to attack me. Here's the bait...errr...target and if you are feeling froggy, go ahead and jump. Now if you prefer to "shadowdance" with the guy, when he zones you, you simply shift position as well. You do it casually and without fuss, but close that window. Now all of a sudden laughing boy knows he is playing with someone who "has his number." And while you know what he is up to, you're cool enough of a cucumber not to panic, which means you are indeed someone not to mess with. All the while doing as you mentioned and giving him "respect" and not causing him to lose face. That way you neither give him the opportunity or the excuse to attack. Both of which are common mistakes that people make...thereby if not provoking, almost guaranteeing an attack will occur. --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Marc Macyoung" To: Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 10:34:52 -0600 Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Re: tips for doormen Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net From Marc MacYoung Jesse said: >An alternate to this is to put both your hands up, palms outwards towards the chest of the individual in a sort of fake "Hey man, I don't want trouble" gesture. This way, both your hands are up in an even more ready position. Automatically putting one foot forward instead of squaring yourself to your potential adversary might be a good idea A couple of things about this idea. First let me start out by saying I respect Geoff Thompson and his experience. And I have used what he calls "fence" on multiple occassions. However, let me throw a couple of warnings onto this one and they largely have to do with the fact that Geoff is a Brit and what works in Merry Olde needs some tweaking here. Number one, this has been commonly misinterpreted as a preemptive strike position. You are saying "Hey, I don't want...POW!" Here's the thing in British, Canadian and Australian law you can use the defense that you felt you were about to be attacked to justify a preemptive strike. However, in the US -- generally speaking -- if you hit first you are considered the instigator of the fight. And if you are bouncing, hitting is not controlling or ejecting. Number two, most people are lousey actors. It takes a LOT of experience to do this without looking like you are moving into a "fighting" position -- which in essence, you are. If the guy sees you moving into a I'm-ready-to-fight- you position it's not going to carry the message you want. In fact, it often tells the guy that you are afraid of him and that is a green light to go ahead and attack. Number three, the fence is not a static position. You don't just slide into that stance and stay there, you "talk" with your hands. Your hands are always flowing from one stealth-defensive position to another. Not fast and jerky, but with slow and easy grace. Number four you DON'T reach out any further than halfway between you and the other guy. That imaginary line is critical. If you do, you have violated his space and when combined with fast, jerky hand motions, odds are you are going to set the guy off. In the same vien you don't step back and extend your hands as a bouncer because that tells the guy that you are afraid of him...and that can also provoke an attack. Number five DON'T do this against a serious bad ass. First there is the very good chance of violating his space and secondly, don't think that a nasty, nasty ISN'T going to see that move for what it is, a set up to hit him. You do that against a hard core SOB and you are going to piss him off and possibily -- gawd help you -- set him off. Number six, DON'T say "I don't want to fight." This is often a green light to attack for American tough guys, as it often implies fear on your part. Even if it doesn't go physical, you have lost ground and will have to work harder. I prefer things like "I'm not interested in fighting you" or "I really don't want a fight tonight" or "I really want to solve this reasonably so you guys can come back." Or if you do use I don't want to fight, put a qualifier on it that shows you are not afraid to fight, but you don't want to. My favorite was "I hate f**king paperwork and if I fight you I'm going to have to do paperwork, so I don't want to fight you." There is a massive difference between how these are going to be interpreted and what the guy will infer from "I don't want to fight" and that difference will, in all probablity, spell the difference between a fight or a talk out. Number seven, don't think you are going to learn the full complexities of this move from a book, video or email, find some experienced people with live-fire experience to train you in it. This short list shows you that there are a lot of things involved that can go wrong, things that you won't learn in a MA school, but will from someone who has experience using this in legitimate confrontations. A half-baked understanding of this move and all the things involved in it is one of the fastest ways I know to set off a fight. --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 13:27:27 -0400 From: Musilat@aol.com To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Doorman post responses Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi All, Thanks for the kind words and useful suggestions. Hopefully that chapter in my life is closed for me, but if I fall into that sort of work again, I will keep all of those suggestions in mind. Great stuff. Especially the hands together posture (great for covering center line). I guess the bottom line is this. An alliance is always better than an adversarial relationship with your customers. Because we are, after all, there to protect them as well as the business. Best, Steve Kohn --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and the Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of Eskrima Digest