Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 19:39:31 -0700 (PDT) From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 9 #171 - 8 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.8 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sender: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net List-Help: List-Post: X-Subscribed-Address: rterry@idiom.com List-Subscribe: List-Id: Inayan Eskrima / FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Unsubscribe: Status: OR Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<----------- The Inayan/Eskrima/Kali/FMA mailing list ----------->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). http://InayanEskrima.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. FMAs and guns (Jamie Hutchins) 2. Taps (Ray Terry) 3. apples and pears (Patrick Davies) 4. Re: apples and pears (Ray Terry) 5. Seminar Warriors-Eskrima in Germany (Christian von Praun) 6. The Gun Thread (Buz Grover) 7. Re: Erik Paulson Seminar (IMATC@aol.com) 8. Philippine fraternity violence - cultural traits (Roland Isla) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Jamie Hutchins To: "'eskrima@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 10:10:23 +0100 Subject: [Eskrima] FMAs and guns Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Tom, Point well taken. I'd forgotten that there is so much to the FMAs that have not been exposed to. Its easy to forget over here that such disarms might ever be necessary (or in fact are possible). One of the reasons that I first became interested in the FMAs in the first place is because I have been threatened by bladed weapons in the past (screwdriver and a stanley knife) and wasn't in any way prepared. On a second point where can you purchase Cacoy's books from - I've had no luck at all? Thanks, Jamie -----Original Message----- From: Tom Meadows [mailto:tmeadows@greaterbaynet.com] Sent: 14 May 2002 21:29 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 9 #168 - 5 msgs Greetings, Regarding Jamie's remark "However I fail to see what relevance all the recent gun-related material has to Escrima or the FMAs? In the past people has been censored for expressing opinions not within the remit of this digest, why not now?" Guns disarms are and have been an integral part of the FMA's since well before the turn of the century, and coming into greater play post WWII, with the prevalence of hand to hand gun and knife jungle fighting. Grandmaster Cacoy Canete's recently published book on Pangamot devotes no less than 15 pages to gun disarming, and I know he was teaching them to his military regiment as early as 1938. The reason we train in all ranges: kicking ,punching, trapping and grappling is so that we will have both superior firepower ( rapidity of attacks) and superior technical breadth to apply this firepower. This is why if the other person has a gun and you do not, you are at a great disadvantage, and martially outgunned so to speak. The reason for stick or empty hand superiority is to win an encounter and the same applies to dealing with guns. We as a group have spent endless hours talking about which knife to carry in order to deal with a knife wielding opponent and this applies equally well to guns . When confronted with a gun the most effective equalizer is another gun. There are currently more guns in America than Americans by about 4% last time I checked: This is well over 200 million guns. The bull is out of the pen, and it is not going back in. I fully support learning to bullfight..... Tom Meadows --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Ray Terry To: policedo@martialartsresource.net (Policedo), eskrima@martialartsresource.net (Eskrima), the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 06:55:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Eskrima] Taps Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Today is National Law Enforcement Officer's Memorial Day. > We have all heard the haunting song, "Taps." It's the song that gives us >that lump in our throats and usually creates tears in our eyes. But, do >you know the story behind the song? If not, I think you will be pleased to >find out about it's humble beginnings. > > Reportedly, it all began in 1862 during the Civil War, when Union Army >Captain Robert Ellicombe was with his men near Harrison's Landing in >Virginia. The Confederate Army was on the other side of the narrow strip >of land. During the night, Captain Ellicombe heard the moans of a soldier >who lay severely wounded on the field. > > Not knowing if it was a Union or Confederate soldier, Captain Ellicombe >decided to risk his life and bring the stricken man back for >medicalattention. Crawling on his stomach through the gunfire, the Captain >reached the stricken soldier and began pulling him toward his encampment. > > When the Captain finally reached his own lines, he discovered it was >actually a Confederate soldier, but the soldier was dead. The Captain lit >a lantern and suddenly caught his breath and went numb with shock. In the >dim light, he saw the face of the soldier. It was his own son. The boy >had been studying music in the South when war broke out. Without telling >his father, the boy enlisted in the Confederate Army. > > The following morning, heartbroken, the father asked permission of his >superiors to give his son a full military burial despite his enemy status. >His request was only partially granted. Captain Ellicombe had asked if he >could have a group of Army band members play a funeral dirge for his son at >the funeral. The request was turned down since the soldier was a >Confederate. But, out of respect for the father, they did say they could >give him only one musician. The Captain chose a bugler. > > He asked the bugler to play a series of musical notes he had found on a >piece of paper in the pocket of the dead youth's uniform. This wish was >granted. The haunting melody, we now know as "Taps" used at military >funerals, and at the end of each day on US military bases was born. > > Day is done.......Gone the sun........From the lakes........ > From the hills.........From the skies. > All is well, Safely rest.......God is nigh........ > > Fading light..........Dims the sight........And a star......... > Gems the sky,..........Gleaming bright > From afar, Drawing nigh, Falls the night. > > Thanks and praise, For our days, Neath the sun, > Neath the stars, Neath the sky, > As we go, This we know, God is nigh. > > I too, have felt the chills while listening to "Taps" but during Police >Memorial Week, it is all the more important to read and ponder. --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Patrick Davies To: "'eskrima@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 14:48:26 +0100 Subject: [Eskrima] apples and pears Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Today's Topics: 1. Banning apples (Marc Denny) MD: Many are of women and older people defending their homes from criminals breaking in to do harm. I have heard that in England you are expected to run away. Is this true? Was there not a case of some old coot living in an isolated farm house who was convicted of murder for defending his home against break-in? These questions are sincere-I recognize that the facts may well be incomplete by the time that they get to us American readers. PD: You are allowed to use reasonable force. If I shoot someone when they break in then I go to jail. In fact if I kick the living sh*t out of them as a message to the rest of their type then I risk going to jail. The farmer had various traps around his farm house and never stopped to consider whether the people breaking in were armed. Therefore he used, in legal terms, unreasonable force. Lets remember that England is only one part of the UK and Scotland, Wales, England and Northern Ireland are Gt Britain! While there is a difference in scottish law and English and Welsh I cant comment on NI. The law of trespass is different in scotland. >Does mean though that > I am more likely to personally step forward when someone needs assistance > with the confidence that im not going to get shot. MD: Another fair point as far as it goes. But, just as your area allows you to step forward without fear of getting shot, so too making guns illegal does not guarantee similar confidence for those of us not blessed to live where you do. The logic of your previous paragraph cuts both ways. PD: but im not advocating that you make guns illegal in your area. Im not taking the stance of telling other cultures what to do which is what I thought the article was about as it was condemning european practice from a norf american culture viewpoint to suit norf american gun lobby politics. Rays point that we are subjects is true. And that's why we arent allowed private armies as the King of the time was scared that the population would do as the French would do later on. In fact, one King even banned an early form of football as it was getting in the way of archery practice! But in the same way the spanish banned the use of indigenous fighting arts in occupied countries the reason for a disarmed nation is in order that the state has better control. Now you want to talk about arming people for self determination then you enter a different slant to what self defence or is it better to call it self determination is all about. Was it not Hitler who banned guns in Germany? MD: I am happy for the edenic garden in which you live, but I do wonder if banning apples will protect it when the snakes come slithering along. PD: now, marc, you are pulling my leg. When have I claimed to live in eden? Ask McFann about his first trip to me in Aberdeen when you next see him. He dubbed it little beirut. He watched over breakfast a drug squad raid across the road, but now I live in different surroundings and he relaxes on his trips more. lol The only banning that has taken place has affected gun clubs as firearms were effectively unavailable to everyone else bar to some crimelords who watch scarface on a daily basis. This is the problem with the europe examples given in germany and switzerland and previously in Dunblane. I can have road rage with the idiot who cut me up today on my Triumph bike knowing that he may take a wrench to me but its very unlikely it will be a gun. Whether that makes me more safe I don't know but its our way and I quite like it that way. Tom: Guns disarms are and have been an integral part of the FMA's since well before the turn of the century, and coming into greater play post WWII, with the prevalence of hand to hand gun and knife jungle fighting. The petiki tirsa sets are impressive as well. I have no problem with this at all. Bill Evans: They claim such high standards and sell out so often, like vultures feeding on the road kill. Same over the pond mate. Pat Davies Flying the flag!! --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [Eskrima] apples and pears To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 7:46:36 PDT Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > In fact, one King even banned an early form of football as it > was getting in the way of archery practice! Then put that SOCEER ball away and start pulling on that bow! :) Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 20:01:12 +0200 Organization: http://freemail.web.de/ From: Christian von Praun To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Seminar Warriors-Eskrima in Germany Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi, there will be a seminar for Warriors-Eskrima with Pangulong Guro Krishna Godhania on 15th and 16th of June in Hannover. For more Information please contact: christianvonpraun@web.de 0049 (0) 211 7 18 66 97 ________________________________________________________________ Keine verlorenen Lotto-Quittungen, keine vergessenen Gewinne mehr! Beim WEB.DE Lottoservice: http://tippen2.web.de/?x=13 --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 14:41:10 -0400 From: "Buz Grover" Organization: George Mason University To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] The Gun Thread Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net A couple thoughts on the gun thread: First, as to why the issue is worth discussing on an Eskrima list, I've one point beyond what has already been said. The tactics and techniques used by those who are going to make the world a safer place by banning objects aren't exclusive to "gun control." I use to do my share of caving/climbing/ropework; the folks who make vertical gear have had to contend with a lot of litigation by folks who hadn't done their homework and hence weren't prepared for an abrupt physics lesson. Same deal with folks who manufacture football and other sports gear, ATV and motorcycle manufacturers, power equipment and so on. Anyone who trains martial arts in a manner that is likely to come in handy when the feces flies will at some point run afoul of those who seek to arbitrate objects rather than behaviors. The gun debate is a bellwether of things to come; those who train MAs in a realistic manner had best heed what the debate bodes. Second is a point germane for the most part to US subscribers to this list. It irks me to no end that many of the same folks who can find a right to privacy lurking amid the penumbras and emanations of the constitution can't seem to muster the energy to understand the second amendment to the Bill of Rights. Journalists are the most notorious here, using their first amendment freedoms to abrogate the amendment that was meant to bulwark all other rights. Whatever the case, when you find things in a document that are not there, and ignore things that are there, you render the document essentially meaningless. My great fear is that we are living in a time where the nattering classes reduce all policy making to a situational mish mash of political posturing. Nowhere is this fear better illustrated than in the current "gun control" debate. Regards, Buz Grover --__--__-- Message: 7 From: IMATC@aol.com Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 14:55:42 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Erik Paulson Seminar Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net On Sat. June 8, 2002 International Martial Arts Training Center wil be hosting Erik Paulson for a One Day Seminar. Although not a FMA seminar, he is known to incorporate alot of Silat techniques as well as his Combat Submission Wrestling and STX Striking. Early Reg is by May 31, 2002 for Only $65 or $75 at the Door. Space is limited. Contact Ace Ramirez at 201.387.1811 or email imatc@aol.com Thank you --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 09:44:08 +0800 From: Roland Isla To: Eskrima Digest Subject: [Eskrima] Philippine fraternity violence - cultural traits Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I found this post on fraternity violence on a Philippine based message board and I thought you guys might find it interesting. Some notes - UP stands for University of the Philippines. It is considererd the pre-eminent academic institution in the country with all students required to have excellent high school marks, pass rigourous entrance exams and letters of recommendation from relevant people at their highschools. Its students are considered the cream of the crop. Frat violence has been a consistent problem on many Philippine campuses, both university and highschool, but especially at UP. That violence takes the form of both hazing (violence in its own group) or gang warfare, and there are many deaths each year. In this past year, many of those charged and convicted were topnotch law and engineering students from wealthy families. The main Filipino cultural traits that fraternity violence highlights are: pakikisama (effort to get along with everybody) and barkada (membership is a group bound by very close friendship and other ties); amor proprio, the Filipino version of saving face; utang ng loob, debt of gratitude; and hiya, the over-riding social sanction of Philippine society - hiya, is sense of shame (the Philippines is said to have a "shame" society, one based on individual action controlled by external sanction, and not a "guilt" society, where individual action is controlled by internal feelings. Where the Japanese may commit harakiri (suicide -self death) because of feelings of shame, the Filipino, when pushed too far by shame, will commit amok (or kill the external source of shame)). The following account is a recollection off someone I know from his experiences in the mid 1980's. I've been told that things haven't changed much except that guns have become more prevalent. Weapons are almost always used, unless you have overwhelming numbers in which case they do resort to fists and kicks. My frat in UP was kinda peaceful (never involved in any rumble) but i've witnessed enough tousles on campus to write my own "art of war". 1. The APO mechanized ambush - a car with only one guy (with maybe a girl) will do a fast pullover beside a rival frat's tambayan (hangout) or a group of rival fratmen and invite a chase. The car will lead the pursuing vehicles to a secluded back road inside the campus where the APO main battle tank awaits: a van or a pick-up with as many as 14 armed APO fighters. 2. The Scintilla Juris ambush squads - when the SJ guys are informed they're at war with a given frat, they immediately split up into squads of 4 and go to their respective weapons caches hidden on campus. an SJ trooper in full combat gear looks like this: - t-shirt - jacket with home-made bullet-proof plating and paddings - motorcyle helmet - maong (blue-jeans) - running shoes Their weapons: - a long, rolled-up umbrella with a pointed end - a cutter or can opener in their pockets - a big knapsack slung out on their chests filled with fist-sized rocks. Once outfitted, each squad goes around campus smashing tambayans, ambushing cars or lone rival frat members. 3. The Beta Sigma corridor walk - this is insidiuous. A seemingly quiet classroom corridor is actually staked out by as many as 20 tabets, "hitmen". They're usually unarmed, relying on speed and numbers. They hang out quietly in a vacant room, sit-in on a boring class or hide in the rest room. When a rival group walks by, they spring out on signal, clobber the guys and get away clean. 4. The Vanguard armored column - nothing fancy. A radio call (this was before cell phones) will bring in a van or 10-wheeler truck filled with vanguards armed with baseball bats, truncheons, sjamboks and teargas. Take the above for what you will. Sincerely, Roland Isla --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and the Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of Eskrima Digest