Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 07:37:31 -0700 (PDT) From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 9 #172 - 4 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.8 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sender: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net List-Help: List-Post: X-Subscribed-Address: rterry@idiom.com List-Subscribe: List-Id: Inayan Eskrima / FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Unsubscribe: Status: OR Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<----------- The Inayan/Eskrima/Kali/FMA mailing list ----------->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). http://InayanEskrima.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. New Inayan Eskrima Training Location (Steve Klement) 2. Influence of Spanish Swordsmanship on the FMA (william schultz) 3. Warriors Eskrima Seminar (Francisco j. Gomez) 4. Banning Apples part two (Marc Denny) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 23:16:41 -0400 From: Steve Klement To: Subject: [Eskrima] New Inayan Eskrima Training Location Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Inayan Systems International, ³The Premier Source for Inayan Eskrima², is pleased to announce additional classes for the Chico/Paradise/Redding, CA area. Classes in Inayan Eskrima are now forming at Downham¹s Universal Karate Academy. The instructor, Masirib Guro Cory Hanosh, is ranked under the late Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay and is a founding member of Inayan Systems International and the Inayan Brotherhood of Eskrima. Classes are held twice weekly and cover all the styles in Inayan Eskrima. For more information, please contact the following and ask about the Inayan Eskrima program: Downham¹s Universal Karate Academy 6149 Skyway Paradise, CA 95969 530-872-4291 hanosh@inayaneskrima.com Inayan Eskrima as taught through Inayan Systems International can also be found in the following locations: San Jose, CA Appleton, WI Twin Cities, MN Knoxville, TN Lenoir City, TN Aliquippa, PA Paris, France Rennes, France Please visit www.inayaneskrima.com for further information. -- Steve Klement Inayan Masirib Guro www.inayaneskrima.com klement@inayaneskrima.com Inayan Systems International --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: 15 May 2002 20:55:14 -0700 From: "william schultz" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Influence of Spanish Swordsmanship on the FMA Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Greetings, I came across this article on the web site for "The Association For Renaissance Martial Arts". The article questions some of the historical events and martial influences of the Spanish the we in the FMA have been taught and read about in our training. Interesting to read a differing opinion. There is a lot of other useful and interesting information on the site. BTW, about a year ago I tried to contact some of these folks listed in my area to see if they would be interested in doing some sparring but, unfortunately, got no takers. www.thehaca.com Best regards, William Schultz PCMA/MCAC The Influence of Spanish Renaissance Swordsmanship on Filipino Martial Arts? by John Clements Although it is not often recognized or acknowledged, the various Filipino martial arts such as Escrima/Arnis are said to contain many elements of Spanish Renaissance swordsmanship. Frequently, when this is acknowledged, it is often done in a misconceived manner that apparently allows followers of modern Filipino weapon arts to dismiss this influence as either inconsequential or even irrelevant. If there is influence from Spanish Renaissance swordsmanship, it would likely be from methods of military cut & thrust swords, not the style of civilian thrusting rapiers. Just what these technqiues might be, and how they are known to be 16th century Spanish in origin (and not something introduced from 19th century epee fencing) would certainly be interesting for today's student of Reniassance martil arts to discover. In a work put out some years back entitled "Filipino Martial Arts" (which received mixed reviews among the Filipino martial arts community), one of the very first chapters labeled "Historical Background", display in its final paragraphs typical misconceptions about Renaissance swordsmanship and Western fighting arts. This particular author (by no means atypical) made the usual points concenring Filipino cultural pride (not that there's anything wrong with that) and stated that in 1521 the great explorer Ferdinand Magellan, first one to circumnavigate the globe (almost), died in battle off of a small island he had attacked in order to gain favor with another local ruler. In this famous battle of Filipino history, Magellan's 49 men with pikes, swords, halberds, a little armor, and a few firearms, were attacked by the now legendary warrior king Lapu Lapu and over 1100 fellow islanders. Magellan's force was outnumbered on the beach by more than twenty to one. So, not surprisingly hedied in the waves amid a hail of arrows and spears (note plural, not singular). What the author fails to mention, is that the very reason we know of the battle's outcome is because Magellan's ship actually escapes (surely not the most decisive victory on the part of the locals). Anyway, the book cites this incident of local historical pride to emphasize how formidable the native fighting skills were/are. But wait. The very next statement is how in 1571, another Spanish explorer under orders to colonize, attacks a native force on another island and faces the "even more formidable" Kali warriors with their (and this is not being made up) fire-hardened rattan sticks. It also says (to quote) that "the native fighting skills far exceeded those of the Spanish". Indeed? Of course, this author then acknowledges that the Spanish/Portuguese actually go on to win the battle, but suggests that this was "due to their firearms." However, a few light-calibre shipboard cannon and inaccurate, slow firing arquebuses in a tropical climate are not about to win a battle over overwhelming odds (back in Europe at the time, they had a lot more guns and still they had to rely on massed pikes and cavalry). Notice also how no credit is given the Spanish/Portuguese's clear military superiority in training, discipline, armaments, tactics, organization, leadership, morale, etc.? The very fact they had high-carbon steel tipped halberds and carefuly tempered chest plates was in itself a big factor, a very formidable one (in fact a generation earlier, Spanish sword & buckler men were trashing the vaunted Swiss pikemen all up and down Europe's battlefields and over-running Italy). What is more remarkable is how a few hundred sailors and men (not even first class Renaissance soldiers in their prime), thousands of miles from their homes and families, continually outfought supposedly "superior" warriors in a hostile and unfamiliar land. The most astounding thing in this revisionist-like view of military history lies in the final paragraph of this particular work. Immediately after all this it goes on to say that "following the Spanish conquest of the islands" (did we miss something here?) and after many skirmishes with (quoting again) "Spanish fencing exponents", the native fighting arts were found wanting. Notice how the Spanish are not called "swordsmen" or even referred to as "warriors" (and certainly not skilled Masters of Arms), but merely "exponents" of "fencing". It's as if they were just going around on the lecture circuit suggesting everyone consider their opinions, rather than defeating native opponents outright. Not surprisingly, this is a good example of the attitude toward historical European martial culture that can be found in many areas of the Asian martial arts community today. The work then goes on to say the native Filipino fighting arts adopted many techniques and dropped others. Excuse me? Now then, we must ask, if the native fighting arts were so formidable, and the Spanish won by merely having firearms, why then were their techniques seen as so useful and effective as to be incorporated? What was suposedly deficient within native fighting talents (especialy seeing as how developed they are)? What exactly were these Spanish "skills" they were borrowing from? They certainly could not have had anything to do with firearms. As with others like it, not only did the book miss all this, but it went on to make the inaccurate and misleading statement that "the Spanish rapier and dagger system of fighting has had a great influence on Filipino arts". Sorry, wrong. The Spanish at the time of Magellan and even later, would not have been fighting with civilian rapiers. The rapier, as we know was a personal weapon of urban self-defense, not a battlefield one. The Spanish/Portuguese sailors and soldiers would have been using military "cut & thrust" swords and fighting in the well-documented style of the Spanish and Italian Masters of the time such as Manciolino, Marozzo, Altoni, Agrippa, and Di Grassi, as well as the highly regarded styles of the Spanish Master Carranza and de Narvaez. The later civilian rapier style simply had not progressed to the point yet where it would likely have been common in the Philippine Islands even during the 1570's let alone earlier. Additionally, for the Spanish/Portuguese the rapier was very much a weapon of the upper classes, not the common men and sailors who would have been the vast majority of fighters the natives would have encountered. These men would have trusted in the sturdier, quick slashing cut & thrust blades which were far better suited for shipboard fighting than the lighter, thrusting rapier would ever have been (Hollywood pirate movies notwithstanding). Additionaly, swords were not the favored or most common weapon of such Renaissance warriors, that would have been left to spears, halberds, falchions and long-knves (an interesting thought...). Apparently though, rather than do accurate research when it comes to European weaponry and fighting arts, the author relied instead on familiar myth and observations of irrelevant epee and foil fencing. Sadly, what many Asian martial-art stylists apparently know of European swordsmanship seems invariably to come from Hollywood films, modern sport fencing, and Renaissance-fair stage shows. So, you can't really blame them completely. Anyway, the material makes the usual mistake that many proponents of admirable Filipino arts seemingly do. It assumes it was the rapier, instead of the Renaissance cut & thrust sword, that had influence on their arts (without really knowing exactly what either weapon is or how they're actually used). Not only this, but the obvious techniques of Filipino stick fighting utilize little thrusting comparitive to the rapier and instead rely predominately on shorter, close-in strikes. These are clearly techniques completely inappropriate for the extra long, virtually edgeless rapier favored by the Spanish. Thus, Filipino techniques are not reminiscent of the vicious and elegant European rapier, but only perhaps of the sophisticated and highly effective Renaissance sword & dagger form. Just what any of this influence may be has yet to be substantially identified or documented by anyone. However, that there were leading proponents of Filipino who arts in the early 20th century did study modern sport fencing is a fact. What effect this sport exposure may have had on their methods of teahcing is another matter for speculation, but certainly it is no evidence of "Renaissance" skills. After all, modern sport fencing (i.e., foil, epee, sabre) is far removed from its martial origins in Renissance swordplay and for more than 150 years has not been about self-defense or been taught as a killing art. Anyway, this is the kind of historical inaccuracy and ignorance of Western martial history that permeates much of the prejudice found in a great deal of the practice of Asian martial arts today. For some Filipinos it has now become a matter of cultural pride to explain why they were colonized, their weapons confiscated, and their native fighting skills forced to hide under the disguise of presumably harmless stick dances (not that there's anything wrong with that). It would seem they have had the final laugh though. Westerners are victims of our own military success (and excess). For it is the splendid Asian traditional fighting arts that have survived and prospered while we struggle to reconstruct and interpret what documented information survives of ours. But for too long a good many false assumptions and assertions made by promoters of Asian styles in regard to our Western martial heritage have gone unchallenged. In this age of cultural sensitivity, renewed ethnic pride, and political correctness, we must give credit whenever it's do and clear up misconceptions when possible. Not to cause offense, but we must treat historical facts as facts even if they make us uncomfortable or damage our pride. The Spanish essentially conquered much of the Philippines islands militarily, and to a lesser extent culturaly. They did not do it through shady deals and corporate take-overs of "noble savages" who were somehow their martial superiors. The very reason the Filipino martial arts today primarily utilize sticks is essentially because of both their ancestors' lack of a widespread advanced metallurgical technology and because their Spanish overlords, as an occupying force, confiscated their weapons as victorious powers have been known to do (not that there's anything wrong with that). Plus, its just far wiser to practice fighting techniques with safe sticks than with metal blades. The diverse Filipino martial arts are very adaptive and pragmatic. They are said to contain elements of many cultures which had contact with them over centuries; Chinese, Indian, Malay, etc. So likely, there is some European in there as well. But if any influence that elements of Filipino arts owe to Renaissance Spanish sword forms is going to be determined and acknowledged, then it demands that exactly what such Western forms and weapons were, and what practitioners today are capable of still, also be correctly understood. For today's practitioners of Medieval & Renaissance fighting systems who are familiar and experienced with the technological and martial significance of group combat and armored battle, including shields, bucklers, spears, bills, pikes, and longbows, the naivete of most comments regarding European arts is astounding. Further, if one wants to argue the validity or effectiveness of modern Arnis/Escrima (or any Asian sword form, for that matter) against a sword & buckler or a rapier & dagger, then they very much need to arrange some serious cross-training and friendly sparring sessions with qualified proponents. Otherwise, everything else is myth and useless conjecture. --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Francisco j. Gomez" To: Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 10:15:44 +0200 Subject: [Eskrima] Warriors Eskrima Seminar Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi all, There will be another Warriors Eskrima seminar with Pangulong Guro Krishna Godhania on 22th of June in Spain. For further Information please contact: Francisco J. Gómez bothoan@hotmail.com http://www.asociacion-aepo.es.vg _________________________________________________________________ Descargue GRATUITAMENTE MSN Explorer en http://explorer.yupimsn.com/intl.asp. --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Marc Denny" To: Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 07:27:25 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] Banning Apples part two Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Woof Pat et al: > MD: Many are of women and older people defending their homes from > criminals breaking in to do harm. I have heard that in England you are > expected to run away. Is this true? Was there not a case of some old coot > living in an isolated farm house who was convicted of murder for defending > his home against break-in? These questions are sincere-I recognize that the > facts may well be incomplete by the time that they get to us American > readers. > > PD: You are allowed to use reasonable force. If I shoot someone when > they break in then I go to jail. In fact if I kick the living sh*t out of > them as a message to the rest of their type then I risk going to jail. > The farmer had various traps around his farm house and never stopped to > consider whether the people breaking in were armed. Therefore he used, in > legal terms, unreasonable force. I suppose that is "reasonable", but if someone is breaking into someone's home, it seems pretty reasonable to me that they get shot. Is one really supposed to wait to see if there is a weapon when one is startled in one's own home? What if the intruder(s) is/are unarmed but bigger and more dangerous? Must you flee your own home? In the case in question, all I remember reading is that he lived in an isolated area and got a very long sentence. > Lets remember that England is only one part of the UK and Scotland, Wales, > England and Northern Ireland are Gt Britain! While there is a difference in > scottish law and English and Welsh I cant comment on NI. The law of trespass > is different in scotland. In general, I readily plead guilty to being an ignorant American-- but actually aren't I on target here? Wasn't it an English case and therefor aren't I on target in limiting my question to English law? :-) > >Does mean though that > > I am more likely to personally step forward when someone needs assistance > > with the confidence that im not going to get shot. > > MD: Another fair point as far as it goes. But, just as your area allows > you to step forward without fear of getting shot, so too making guns illegal > does not guarantee similar confidence for those of us not blessed to live > where you do. The logic of your previous paragraph cuts both ways. > > PD: but im not advocating that you make guns illegal in your area. Im > not taking the stance of telling other cultures what to do which is what I > thought the article was about as it was condemning european practice from a > norf american culture viewpoint to suit norf american gun lobby politics. The article was published in America and reading it was an American I interpreted it as part of the ongoing debate here where the unilateral disarmament faction often uses Europe as an example of what we should do here. > Rays point that we are subjects is true. And that's why we arent allowed > private armies as the King of the time was scared that the population would > do as the French would do later on. In fact, one King even banned an early > form of football as it was getting in the way of archery practice! But in > the same way the spanish banned the use of indigenous fighting arts in > occupied countries the reason for a disarmed nation is in order that the > state has better control. Now you want to talk about arming people for self > determination then you enter a different slant to what self defence or is it > better to call it self determination is all about. Was it not Hitler who > banned guns in Germany? I agree with this point about the importance of self-determination. To quote yet another bumper sticker "When only the police have guns its a police state." I vaugely remember getting my head handed to me by one of our German readers in a thread on this same general subject some time back, something to the effect of "We don't have guns-- are you calling us a police state?" and I had to back down when I wasn't willing to say that. I have read things about Europe that give me the impression that the growth of Big Brother/the Nanny State is even further along than here, but that would be a subject well beyond the purview of this list as well as my ability to comment intelligently so I will just say that the idea of an unarmed population makes me uneasy. > MD: I am happy for the edenic garden in which you live, but I do wonder > if banning apples will protect it when the snakes come slithering along. > PD: now, marc, you are pulling my leg. When have I claimed to live in > eden? , , , Well, just a gentle tug. it was offered with a smile in response to your expression of pleasure with your environs. :-) > The only banning that has taken place has affected gun clubs as firearms > were effectively unavailable to everyone else bar to some crimelords who > watch scarface on a daily basis. This is the problem with the europe > examples given in germany and switzerland and previously in Dunblane. I can > have road rage with the idiot who cut me up today on my Triumph bike knowing > that he may take a wrench to me but its very unlikely it will be a gun. > Whether that makes me more safe I don't know but its our way and I quite > like it that way. This is a fair point. Due to our history in America there are so many guns that I think it necessary for the people here to have the right to arms. Whether banning arms entirely where possible is a good idea for reasons of self-determination is a good idea is a deeper question. Would European history be different if Hitler had not disarmed the population? Would the Jews have been able to fight back? Would Communist dictatorship have imposed its way on East Europe for as long as it did? etc. You are right that the article quoted applies American thinking to Europe. (BTW over the years I have run into Euro pieces suggesting we follow the Euro course) But perhaps it is fair to raise the questions that it does now that it appears that Europe begins to face the same questions as we do in the US? It is interesting to think about whether there is a universal truth in this (as the article suggests) or whether one can keep the snakes out by banning apples (as Pat suggests). In other words, is it really possible over time to prevent guns by banning them? Has Europe's relative lack of gun crime been due more to culture/history than its laws? No answers here-- just questions. > Pat Davies > Flying the flag!! > > , , , > > Second is a point germane for the most part to US subscribers to this > list. It irks me to no end that many of the same folks who can find a > right to privacy lurking amid the penumbras and emanations of the > constitution can't seem to muster the energy to understand the second > amendment to the Bill of Rights. Journalists are the most notorious > here, using their first amendment freedoms to abrogate the amendment > that was meant to bulwark all other rights. Whatever the case, when you > find things in a document that are not there, , , I would disagree with this reading of the 9th. (The Rights of the People not otherwise enumerated remain retained by the People) is on the most important amendments of the Constitution-- it is analogous to the distinction between "everything not prohibited is permitted" and "everything not permitted is prohibited". The rights listed in the C. are not to be taken as a complete listing. This is very important IMHO. There IS a right to privacy, and there IS a right to self-defence and the 9th allows the courts to say so. I do agree that the right to privacy has been recklessly used in the matter of abortion, but that does not mean that there is not a right to privacy. For the 9th to be meaningful, it MUST find rights not specifically listed elsewhere. > Regards, > Buz Grover Crafty Dog --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and the Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of Eskrima Digest