Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 15:34:40 -0700 (PDT) From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 9 #174 - 7 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.8 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sender: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net List-Help: List-Post: X-Subscribed-Address: rterry@idiom.com List-Subscribe: List-Id: Inayan Eskrima / FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Today's Topics: 1. Banning Apples part three (Patrick Davies) 2. sword victim (Dan McConnell) 3. Home Defense (Tom Meadows) 4. our 'other' list (Ray Terry) 5. what is a martial art? (phil) 6. reality-based systems- martial arts/ (Steven Drape) 7. What is a Martial Art (Musilat@aol.com) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Patrick Davies To: 'eskrima digest' Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 10:38:11 +0100 Subject: [Eskrima] Banning Apples part three Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net MD I suppose that is "reasonable", but if someone is breaking into someone's home, it seems pretty reasonable to me that they get shot. Is one really supposed to wait to see if there is a weapon when one is startled in one's own home? What if the intruder(s) is/are unarmed but bigger and more dangerous? Must you flee your own home? In the case in question, all I remember reading is that he lived in an isolated area and got a very long sentence. PD When has the law ever been truly representative of public will? Most law was developed to protect the interests of those who had something to protect. In my country, 84% of the wealth is owned by 6% of the population. Guess who is protecting who? Did any of us really have input in the creation of laws that we abide by? I cant recall the exact details of the case but it wasn't as clear cut as that although public opinion would have been behind him, few of that public would actually invite him into their home. Bit of a nutter. MD In general, I readily plead guilty to being an ignorant American-but actually aren't I on target here? Wasn't it an English case and therefor aren't I on target in limiting my question to English law? :-) PD Yes, it was in England but I wasn't sure of your awareness of the case, but it was English & Welsh law. In scotland, the different law of trespass would also affect your right to 'shoot'. Unless it was a poor defenceless bird called a grouse.......or a haggis. MD I agree with this point about the importance of self-determination. To quote yet another bumper sticker "When only the police have guns its a police state." I vaugely remember getting my head handed to me by one of our German readers in a thread on this same general subject some time back, something to the effect of "We don't have guns-are you calling us a police state?" and I had to back down when I wasn't willing to say that. I have read things about Europe that give me the impression that the growth of Big Brother/the Nanny State is even further along than here, but that would be a subject well beyond the purview of this list as well as my ability to comment intelligently so I will just say that the idea of an unarmed population makes me uneasy. PD Are we really in charge of our own destinies? The religious will say no as God is (which ever one you subscribe too). The revolutionaries will say no otherwise they have no reason to revolt. The people who are benefiting from the current set up might well say yes. So maybe we are all 'subjects' after all? MD This is a fair point. Due to our history in America there are so many guns that I think it necessary for the people here to have the right to arms. Whether banning arms entirely where possible is a good idea for reasons of self-determination is a good idea is a deeper question. Would European history be different if Hitler had not disarmed the population? Would the Jews have been able to fight back? Would Communist dictatorship have imposed its way on East Europe for as long as it did? etc. You are right that the article quoted applies American thinking to Europe. (BTW over the years I have run into Euro pieces suggesting we follow the Euro course) But perhaps it is fair to raise the questions that it does now that it appears that Europe begins to face the same questions as we do in the US? It is interesting to think about whether there is a universal truth in this (as the article suggests) or whether one can keep the snakes out by banning apples (as Pat suggests). In other words, is it really possible over time to prevent guns by banning them? Has Europe's relative lack of gun crime been due more to culture/history than its laws? No answers here-just questions. > PD the general population of pre war Germany seemingly congratulated Hitler for the night of the long knives[where he murdered the leaders of the SA and got away with it for the good of the nation] proving the nanny state is acceptable. Yesterdays jews are today's (Europe's) asylum seekers from albania or other war torn countries. Tell the same lie over and over again someone believes it as true. Camps in Europe horde asylum seekers that remind you of concentration camps of past eras. Will the gas taps turn? What could make people to go that far and if they could bear arms would they not just do it themselves? Like your Akita, it accepts the role of its dominant master as we accept the authority of the state. The Akita may not realise that if it doesn't obey its master it may be 'put down' as we accept that by revolting against the state it will bring all its force on us. The state exists on fear. There's no real freedom on that basis and we are all subjects of the state. It would be ironic if the russian population voted the communists back into power wouldn't it. I don't think you can keep the snakes out by banning apples, but the nature of the bite may be affected. Doesn't stop the motive to attack someone, just stops the escalation of weaponry to a degree. Knives could still be used, bar stools etc and with all death could result. Weapons are a natural reaction/impulse and which one is determined by its availability. Moral choice would be short circuited by fear would it not? Some see the gun as an equaliser while others see it as a terrorist. What a horrible thought to raise a child only to see that childs life taken away in an act of gross stupidity. And what about the haggis Regards, signing off Pat --__--__-- Message: 2 From: mccfamily@plexis.net (Dan McConnell) To: Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 09:48:53 -0400 Subject: [Eskrima] sword victim Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net This is long but well worth the read........ I'm a firefighter/medic/air crash and rescue trained person.This a.m. at 07:48 we were summoned to the scene of a home invasion. In the kitchen was a police officer and one of the victims who had a lacerated finger and thumb. The police told us that the other victim was in an upstairs bedroom and "it was bad". In the bedroon was a man on the bed, on his hands and knees, butt up and head down on a pillow. He had slashing wounds as well as puncture wounds all over his posterier torso. When we rolled him over is when it got really gruesome. He had his neck slashed and all the veins/arteries severed. He had a long slash to his flank, many puncture wounds and a large laceration to his left chest. He was essentially DOA but had a complex on the monitor so we "worked" him. The story was that one intruder entered the home and attacked the DOA. The roommate heard his friend yelling "get him off me!" Upon entering his friends room he saw a man dressed in a ninja outfit with a sword. He put his hand up to defend himself and recieved the wounds to his hand. At the E.R. the staff "cracked" his chest to find his heart alnost completely severed in 2. The ventricals were seperated form the atria. He bled out into his thorax where it all coagulated. The staff said that they had never seen a heart so nearly completely severed. Witnesses at the scene said that there were 2 people seen running from the home. Approx 10 min. later there was another identical attack where a man dressed in a ninja outfit held a sword to a womans neck and robbed her. She was not harmed. Two weeks ago a firefighter friend was at the store purchasing a computer. Two men followed him home and rushed in the door just after the firefighter entered. They subdued him, duct taped his wife and daughter and told him to give them what they wanted or they would rape his family. He gave them what they wanted. Noone was harmed. Now he gives seminars on the importance of the gun carry laws. This illustrates the unfortunate fact that the police cannot protect you. At least as far as home invasion is concerned. We can be going about our day and never know who may be watching our every move just waiting for an opportunity. Awareness and training are our best allies. We must agressively seek our own health and welfare. Dan McConnell Modern Arnis of Ohio Hilliard Budo Center --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Tom Meadows" To: Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 07:32:18 -0700 Organization: Simple Solutions Subject: [Eskrima] Home Defense Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Greetings, Years ago I read a small article about a Scotsman who was on trial for shooting a man with a medieval crossbow when the man was trying to break into his house . He and his wife were home when several men tried to force the front door open. He had one of those wind up metal prod crossbows that shot iron arrows and shot one of the intruders with it . The jury deliberated 30 minutes before aquitting him. Here's the best part: He never opened the door, just fired through the door. Says a lot for medieval weaponry. Tom Meadows --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Ray Terry To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 8:59:55 PDT Subject: [Eskrima] our 'other' list Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net fyi, in case someone might be interested. Ray ================================================================== Do you practice Korean martial arts? e.g. Tang Soo Do, HwaRang Do, Kuk Sool Won, Taekwondo, TaekKyon, Hapkido, Soo Bahk Do, Gumdo, Yudo, Ship Pal Ki, Yu Sool, Kong Soo Do, Kung Jung Moo Sool, etc. Our readers range from 9th gup (white belt) to 9th Dan. Come practice with us at the The_Dojang, 9 years of continuous operation. The_Dojang list is a ~1000 member e-mail distribution list for the RESPECTFUL discussion of all Korean martial arts. We remain the oldest, largest and by far the premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean martial arts. All are welcome! The list is managed by "Mailman". To subscribe to The_Dojang list go to: http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang Brought to you by http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "phil" To: Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 08:01:25 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] what is a martial art? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net My two cents, > What about martial arts that > aren't considered fighting arts Personally I believe T'ai Chi to be a martial art, I have met people, instructors among them who have practiced the art for self defence purposes and not paid any attention to the "healing benefits".(Tai Chi Chaun) The term martial art in english literally comes across to me as "war art". To the Japanese Samurai at one time swimming in armour was a study, a martial art in and of itself.(No fighting invloved, just swimming in advanced plate armour.) I equate boxing and wrestling as martial arts, they started as viable froms of self defence and then gained enough popularity to become a sport that could support itself and the better athletes in some style. Of course the latest version or interpretation is a graceless parody of something so far removed from it's base as to be a totally different animal. WWF is one example. Could we draw a parralel from the point above between the origins of Kung Fu and the various "artistic" practices it has evolved into, perhaps the form practiced in the manner of the Peking Opera? There are in my locale, people practicing "martial arts", teaching and saying things that boggle the mind. I met a guy who had done a nameless Korean Martial Art for 8 years and did not know what a sweep was! Then after I showed him the technique, asked me if it wasn't cheap. To encapsulate, the term martial art is to broad, it has a connotation from years of use and a public perception that is not always accurate. I prefer the term Combat Sciences myself. I remain true to the Art i was given and the men who gave me the knowledge,howecver the practice of the combat sciences means I can experiment, reverse engineer and otherwise get in up to my elbows and really figure out what makes things tick.Freedom of thought and clarity of technique throught practical application. Plus it seperates me from the McDojos and McDojangs and the clown shows like WWF and the other unwashed. This is my opinion. No offence. Phil --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 18:58:42 +0300 From: "Steven Drape" To: Subject: [Eskrima] reality-based systems- martial arts/ Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Compared to reality-based systems, hybrid systems, street-fighting, etc. what do fellow readers think a martial art is? Do you think reality-based systems are martial arts? Can all fighting-based physical activity be considered martial arts? What about martial arts that aren't considered fighting arts (I have heard some people define Tai Chi as a martial art yet at the same time proclaim that Tai Chi isn't practiced for the purpose of honing fighting skills). You have to remember that all, repeat all, of the martial arts we have today started out as fighting systems. Even things like aikido were derived from other martial systems. Tai chi is no different. (There are some theories that tai chi was actually created to combine all the most deadly techniques from many other arts, then disguised by putting it into the form.) This question falls into the category of "if it is new, it must not be as good as the old ones". I don't believe that. I firmly believe that hybrid systems are just the next generation of martial arts, and 100 years from now people will be comparing what they have then with our "new" systems, like JKD, Dog Brothers or any other, and asking the same questions Steve. --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 16:01:56 -0400 From: Musilat@aol.com To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] What is a Martial Art Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Jason, Some systems emphasize the martial aspects (combat), while others emphasize the artful side (movement). A rare few combine both in equal amounts. Of course some will argue that if you can't fight with it, then its not a martial art at all. But I think it's pretty safe to say that Tai Chi (with it's emphasis on meditative motion rather than combative effectiveness) is very much a martial art. How "martial" it is is entirely up to the practitioner. Best, Steve Kohn --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and the Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of Eskrima Digest