Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 13:24:58 -0700 (PDT) From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 9 #178 - 6 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.8 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sender: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net List-Help: List-Post: X-Subscribed-Address: rterry@idiom.com List-Subscribe: List-Id: Inayan Eskrima / FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Unsubscribe: Status: OR Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<-------- The Inayan/Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list -------->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). http://InayanEskrima.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: What is a Martial Art ? (Patrick Davies) 2. What is Martial Arts?? (GatPuno@aol.com) 3. What is a Martial Art ? (Marc MacYoung) 4. Chief Lapu-Lapu (Heather Kiesling) 5. Re: reality-based systems- martial arts/ (Marc MacYoung) 6. Re: Chief Lapu-Lapu (Ray Terry) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Patrick Davies To: "'eskrima@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 14:34:10 +0100 Subject: [Eskrima] Re: What is a Martial Art ? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I started a women's self defence course at a gym last week and initiated the striking part with them hitting the big core stability balls that are now part and parcel of every garage corner (usually above the isometric press, ankle weights and bullworker). Worked a treat but when I later moved to focus pads they wouldn't hit. So the type of equipment being used created an image that they did not feel comfortable with! I thought that by using the balls id overcome that! Strangely I was working a little drill to get them into the feel of trapping and body zoning and worked a palisut/scoop from a grab to a downward elbow. This was going well and then I pulled out a training knife. Wow! Did they react! They had it so good and with the thrill were utilising takedowns at a speed I wouldn't have dared hope for. Now, they worked with the knife but wouldn't hit the pads! Work that one out!! Sometimes it comes down to the instructor though. I had a class full of people all working hard but due to time commitments I got someone else to take that class. All the women who were present stopped after two classes and most went to kick aerobics instead. The subject matter was the same but the instructor changed. Pat Davies -----Original Message----- Message: 3 > I know many people join martial arts for several different reasons, rather > it be for self knowledge, for healing, for a hobby, The above is worth repeating... We often fall into the trap of thinking that many/most/all of those taking martial arts are in it for the same reason that we are (whatever that is). There are a great many reasons why people study martial arts. According to some studies most are not even there to learn to fight. Yes, perhaps hard to believe, but that fact might help some to get 'out of the box' when it comes to meeting the needs of each student(assuming that is your goal as a teacher). Ray Terry --__--__-- Message: 2 From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 09:38:11 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] What is Martial Arts?? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hello fellow members, Additional two cent on the topic, What is Martial Arts? Many of you shared your thought about "Martial Arts." I think the different goal of each practitioner will explain to them what is martial arts? Some of us want to learn how to depend themselves, learn how fight back, or whatever you might call it is categorized as Self Defense. Whenever you heard Martial arts, Self defense is come to mind, because this is the essential meaning of the arts. But hey, the new generation change a lot of things, changes is good and bad, and martial arts is included to this changes. The Martial Arts in the old days is a straight forward "Art of Fighting or combative arts and self protection purpose only. The new generation introduced "Sport" Martial arts, that water down the essence of Martial arts, the new meaning martial arts are born, (curriculum, rules, and various category are created of some business minded so called grandmasters). Karate is the example of this, according to the book of "Karate Do" by Mitose Sensei, if he is going to teach the Karate the way it should be, they would take them a lifetime to master it. When he first teach the art request by the Japanese Emperor, he alter them, created the curriculum which he call it "Kata" a dance like motion representing the body movement of martial art he call it "Karate," that why he refused to call arts as it, he call it "Karate-do" meaning way of Karate. Karate was propagated all over the worlds became the most re-known martial art is the worlds. This paved the way to a lot of "martial Artist" to follow suit to his ideas, (create curriculum and progression training chart to measured the level of each practitioner) promote sport tournament to enhance the value of training in it. Martial arts is included weapons, variety of weapon, old and new (such the knife, bolo, swords, stick, bow and arrow, spear and the new generation weapons gun and various ammunition. As far as I concern, Martial arts is everlasting study of combat and self defense. Filipino Martial arts, is one of this multi-face combat arts, whatever weapons available out there will be able to used by Filipino fighters, a lot of other martial artist claimed that the Filipino martial arts is borrow this, borrow that, so what, but hey if is necessary to equalized fight, or make it more advance we will utilized them to our advantage. Do you want to fight face to face with knife against a gun off-course not, but if that the only choice you have, you might need extra speed and mind game to defeat them. Martial arts is the art of combat. Just my opinion, gumagalang/with respect, Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Laguna Arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research Center USA --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Marc MacYoung" To: Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 08:57:01 -0600 Subject: [Eskrima] What is a Martial Art ? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >From Marc Animal MacYoung > > Well this is > > why Im afraid anymore the > > whole profile of the future of martial arts is > > falling apart due to the > > mcdojo's and the whole sport aspect of martial arts. > > Can anyone else > > elaborate or give an opinion here? I'll tell you what, go out and get Bob Orlando's Martial Arts America. I really like his "theory" on the evolution/de-evolution of martial arts. And how the cycle starts over again. What you see as a decline, is pretty much part of an ongoing cycle. I should warn you, Bob gives the MA in America both barrels. He is logical, methotical and backs his arguments up. You may not like what he says, in fact, many people hate it because it pretty well sums up many of the "problems" of commercial schools. However, in order to argue against it you had better have something better than "Ugh huh" "Is not!" and "we'll that's not how we do it in our school." --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 09:26:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Heather Kiesling To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Chief Lapu-Lapu Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi All, I'm trying to find information on what Chief Lapu-Lapu of Mactan did for largo-mano. I know that he killed Magellan in battle, but I'm having a hard time finding much else. Any suggestions on where to look? H LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Marc MacYoung" To: Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 11:17:25 -0600 Subject: [Eskrima] Re: reality-based systems- martial arts/ Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net From Marc "Animal" MacYoung Steve said > Compared to reality-based systems, hybrid systems, > street-fighting, etc. what do fellow readers think a > martial art is? Do you think reality-based systems are > martial arts? Can all fighting-based physical activity be > considered martial arts? What about martial arts that > aren't considered fighting arts (I have heard some people > define Tai Chi as a martial art yet at the same time > proclaim that Tai Chi isn't practiced for the purpose of > honing fighting skills). To start with let me say that I have a serious problem with the term "reality based self-defense." The reason I have a problem with it is the same reason that I have when someone says "Yeah, but in a real fight..." Not to put to fine of a point on it, but every physical confrontation I have ever been in has been a "real" fight. Whether it was someone attempting to kill me, a head-to-head with a guy that I had a hard on with, a drunk throwing a sloppy punch, having to sit on a friend who was freaking out on drugs or having to put down and handcuff someone who wasn't really happy about me saying "no" to him. Each was "real" but each required totally different levels of force. Way too often people who use the terms "reality based", "streetfighting","ultimate" or any of the other popular terms are in fact pedalling an "extreme sports" mindset, NOT an accurate assessment of what it takes to survive the complexitites and dangers of crime and violence. Going beserk on someone with your "hardcore" training is more than likely to get you thrown into prison for murder than it is anything else. And yet this fantasy persists that in order to survive you need to get into this extreme mindset. Well, not to pop anybody's bubble, but I don't care how extreme or hardcore your mindset is, a shotgun blast from the shadows as you are getting out of your car will render any "reality based training" you have useless. If you think you are training for reality, then you have to accept that this is reality. A guy who is willing to attack you will also be willing to ambush you with a tire iron as you walk out the door. It won't always be a head on -- that's reality. Unfortunately many people have the mistaken idea that martial arts = fighting = self-defense. Just because you know the martial arts doesn't mean you can fight. Just because you can fight doesn't mean you know the martial arts. And the all time biggie is "if you are fighting you are not engaged in self-defense." Each is radically different and each requires totally different mindset, set of moves and goals. Until you are intimately familiar with each, it is nearly impossible to "shift gears" even though you "think" you can. The value of the martial arts is what is there besides the ability to fight. The philosophy, the self-discipline, the commitment, the acheivement (just to name a few) are the things that make the martial arts so incredibly valuable and such a worthy pursuit. But you detract from that value when you try to sell it as something else. This is especially true when you have gone down a particular pathway and then attempt to sell your "focus" or path as an all encompassing, "this is everything you need to know about the subject." What is lacking is legion. What is not lacking however, is the ability of the instructor to lie, BS and huff and puff that what he is teaching really is everything you need to know. I actually know a man who had lost a fight using his karate (a system that had been touted as self-defense) when he told his instructor, the response was "After you lose a couple of fights then it will just click and you will be able to use it." (And this instructor was supposed to be a ferocious streetfighter). This sequeys into the next point. A lot of what bothers me about "hybrid" systems is that often individuals have been taught by an instructor who has lost a lot of what was originally there. Unless you are willing to break out of the mold, you're only going to learn the depths of an art as deeply as the instructor knows it. What he doesn't know is going to be reflecting in his teaching. The problem is until you begin to travel around and learn from other people, you aren't going to discover that it is no longer a complete system. Unfortunately, it has often been my experience when it comes to people who create hybrid systems that it is more a matter of pride than actual need or solutions to relevant problems. They blame the system rather than the lousey teacher (or the current trends compounded by a series of lousey teachers). Then from the same flawed mindset, they try to create a "new answer." This rather than going out and discovering what was lost. Here is where you get the problem. If you go out and start looking for what was lost you will discover all kinds of depths. Gee, this art has been around for a couple of hundred years, think maybe somewhere along the line they may have encountered this problem before? Granted to you it may be a "new" problem, but I'll bet you that sometime in the past, someone met up with this, added what they used to counter it into the system. Now the question is, do you recognize it for what it is? Or has that limited understanding that was passed onto you, continued in you? Do you know what is missing from what you teach? Do you know where what you teach stops? For example, I have a particular bias, mindset, agenda, focus (pick your term) and that is self-defense / professional use of force. That effects everything. From how I look at a problem, how I do things, what I teach, what I think, who I appeal to, etc., etc., all of these are effected by my focus. If someone comes to me and wants to learn kali, I tell them to head to the school down the road. That is not what I teach, I teach "knife work." "But isn't it the same?" No. There is no "art" here, there is no tradition or discipline...there is only survival. If I were to teach what I teach under the guise of arnis, kali or escrima, then I would be lying. Because those "arts" are beyond my focus. I know where my limits are, the question is: Does the guy who comes up with a hybrid system know where his limits are? Is he really smarter than hundreds of years of other people? Or is he in fact, pulling things in from a very specific -- and limited -- bias and understanding? Very specifically, from a martial arts mindset? And does he know where that stops? Grappling is a good example, how many martial art "styles" added grappling to their cirriculum after the success of the Gracies? (or even funnier was how many arts revealed "secret grappling techniques" that really resembled submission fighting). Now going to the ground is not the sole domain of BJJ, but how much of this "new" groundfighting cirriculum is designed around the standards of "submission" fighting? As opposed to the eye gouging, headbutting, ear biting groundfighting of a brawler when he hits the deck? I mean really, how many of you guys in your grappling training have been taught to guard against biting? His new hybrid system might be extremely effective for the trends and influences in the martial arts world, but does it address issues other than what is found there? It's been my experience thus far that the answer is usually no. Hybrid systems usually only address specific issues and from a limited viewpoint. They unfortunately often fall into the trap of "Do you know the actual problem or are you just guessing?" This is often based because it stems from only one person's viewpoint and assessment of a particular problem -- not the myriad of possibilities out there. In conclusion I would have to answer your question of "are these martial arts?" with another question. It isn't are these martial arts, but are these martial arts being sold as something else? --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Chief Lapu-Lapu To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 14:01:56 PDT Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > I'm trying to find information on what Chief Lapu-Lapu of Mactan did for > largo-mano. I know that he killed Magellan in battle, but I'm having a > hard time finding much else. Any suggestions on where to look? I don't think you will find much of anything. There is an account of Lapulapu's encounter with Magellan in Quirino's Filipinos at War (out-of-print), but in general we know little to nothing of Lapulapu outside of him being involved in the battle at Mactan Island with Magellan and his soldiers. Many will claim to be of direct lineage to Lapulapu and/or teaching his style of Eskrima, but IMHO they are not to be believed. We just don't know... Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and the Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of Eskrima Digest