Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 02:08:46 -0700 (PDT) From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 9 #181 - 8 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.8 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sender: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net List-Help: List-Post: X-Subscribed-Address: rterry@idiom.com List-Subscribe: List-Id: Inayan Eskrima / FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Unsubscribe: Status: OR Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<-------- The Inayan/Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list -------->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). http://InayanEskrima.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Leo Giron / Condolences from ISI (Steve Klement) 2. Master Leo Giron Passing (Seraksatu@aol.com) 3. Sources for Info on Lapu-Lapu & 16th Century Philippines (Elrik Jundis) 4. The loss of another giant... (Bobbe Edmonds) 5. Re: Sources for Info on Lapu-Lapu & 16th Century Philippines (Ray Terry) 6. Master Giron's passing (Steven Lefebvre) 7. Lapu-lapu (Heather Kiesling) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 19:04:28 -0400 From: Steve Klement To: Subject: [Eskrima] Leo Giron / Condolences from ISI Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sincerest condolences from ISI to the family and students of Grandmaster Leo Giron who are grieving at this time. Another FMA legend has passed... but will not be forgotten. With respect and sympathy from us all, -- Inayan Systems International Inayan Federation of Eskrima Inayan Brotherhood of Eskrima --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Seraksatu@aol.com Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 19:06:02 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Master Leo Giron Passing Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Selamat All: A call came to the VDT Academy from Ibu Paula Inosanto while Guru Dan Inosanto was taking his class here. It gave Guru Dan a tear in his eyes. We were watching a Tape that Guru Dan brought for me to see of a historical documentery film that will be presented soon, on the Battalion of the Phillipinos that fought the Japanese during WWII. Also all about the Bollo Batalion that was actually trained and came from California Guru Dan was one of the first Graduate from master Giron School in Stockton California. Master Giron was like an Uncle to Guru Dan. Our deepest condolence to the family of Master Giron Hormat Pak Vic --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 17:48:06 -0700 From: Elrik Jundis To: Subject: [Eskrima] Sources for Info on Lapu-Lapu & 16th Century Philippines Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Howdy digest Folks, Just came back from 3 months in the Philippines where among other things I did more cross training and research into the FMA's. I'll share a bit in the coming days. This trip, I focused on Silat and Kali Ilustrisimo and while I lived in Quezon City. Thanks to the folks on the list who hooked me up with Master Diego. > I'm trying to find information on what Chief Lapu-Lapu of Mactan did for > largo-mano. I know that he killed Magellan in battle, but I'm having a > hard time finding much else. Any suggestions on where to look? I agree with Ray Terry that it will be hard to find much on Lapu Lapu as far as written historical information. Especially as it relates to what we now call Filipino Martial Arts. If anything you will find that the historical and anthropological documentation will contradict what we have been told to us by many of the last generation of masters. I am no expert but I have done a little research. We do know a good deal more about that historical period than we did just ten years ago. Anyone interested in the historical orgins of these arts should read the following. Barangay: Sixteenth-Century Philippine Culture & Society by William Henry Scott Ateneo de Manila University Press, Manila 1994 I've read this several times over and I consider it a must reading. His other works are also well worth reading. He passed away before I could meet him but I have been able to meet individuals who have corresponded with him. This work is entirely gleamed from an amazing amount of European, Chinese, & Japanese source material. This man had a love for the Filipino people and it shows in his work. The Philippines: In the 6th to 15th Century by E. P. Patanñe LSA Press, Inc. 1996 San Juan Metro Manila Drier and more academic. Must read for it's coverage of the Laguna Copper plate which put back the clock for Philippine written history to 900 AD. The Discovery and Conquest of the Philippines (1521-1581) by Fr. Martin J. Noone Richview Browne & Nolan Ltd. Republic of Ireland, Year? I just picked this up this trip as a gift. I am only a 100 pages into it. I love the fact that most of it is direct translations of works from that time period. A good number of the pages are 1/3 footnotes. Note: The above authors did the work and had access to first hand resources in the original Spanish, French, Italian, German, Chinese, and Portuguese that most of us will never see. In terms of scholarly diligence, I would consider the works of Scott to be the most thoroughly cross-referenced and accurate. He was also a cultural anthropologist who did decades of field work with indigenous people in the Philippines. IMHO, the FMA's of today did not exist in 16th Century Philippines (back then there was no Philippines and no Spanish terminology like Largo Mano). I also do not believe that the Bolo, Sundang, Barong, Baston, etc. was the primary weapon during the sixteenth century. I believe it was the spear. That is another discussion though and can't be proven, but I have my opinions. I do believe we have the best product/systems/art for today both as a means of defense/offense and as a field of study and human endeavor. As for the Magellan Voyage: There are actually 5 first hand accounts that have survived in manuscript form and at least one manuscript by a second hand source that interviewed the first hand sources. The Ayala & Lopez family museum libraries in the Philippines contain 16th century copies of some of these manuscripts. The most famous document of course is "Primo viaggio intorno al mondo" of 1524 by Antonio Pifagetta. What most folks don't know is that original manuscript disappeared centuries ago and that the four copies (all from the early 16th century) considered most accurate only came into academic circles in the 19th Century. For generations Spanish historians in the Philippines (if they were lucky) relied on a garbled & paraphrased writing of a 1525 French Translation. Other folks were stuck with a 1550 Italian translation of the 1525 French work. William Henry Scott had access to the four documents considered most accurate. Recently National Geographic did almost a whole issue on the Voyage of Magellan, I am wondering if they used one of the more accurate sources. I do remember that it included Magellan's end in Mactan. The other quoted first hand sources of the battle of Mactan are: The navigational log of Pilot Francisco Alba, the diary of Ginés de Mafra (who returned 22 years later on the Villalobos expedition), and two undated first hand anonymous Portuguese accounts. The most famous second hand source is "De Moluccis Insulis" by Maximilianus Transylvanus which was printed in Rome in 1524: this records interviews with F. Magahães and other members of the crew. Also most folks are ignorant of the fact that Magellan had been exploring in what is now Indonesia and Malaysian from 1507 to 1511: ten years before his famous death in Mactan. We know the following of Lapu Lapu. He was a Datu and that there is a high probability that he used one of the following titles: Rajah (ruler), Batara (Noble Lord), or Sarripada (His Highness). Use of these titles was a common practice for those Datu's who controlled seaports that engaged in foreign trade. The location of Mactan's Village would have put him in a position of controlling or intercepting shipping to Cebu. We also know that just before the actual battle Magellan gave Lapu Lapu the opportunity to acknowledge Humabon (the rival Datu of Cebu) as his overlord. Lapu-Lapu's reply was that "he was unwilling to come and do reverence to one whom he had been commanding for so long a time." The common image of Lapu-Lapu is that a young viral warrior. The three most common imagges of him are on the old One Centavo, the statue on Mactan Island, and the Francisco Coching comic book imaged now often used by Bakbakan International. In actuality he probably was in his middle age for that time period, which would put him in his mid thirties or older. We also know that Humabon who originally asked Magellan for aid in subduing Lapu Lapu was married to Lapu-Lapu's niece. We know that with the agricultural and societal technology at the time that Mactan could not have had more than 300 people living there, yet over a thousand folks showed up to fight the pale foreigners (Note: this is the opinion of the foreign writers). The battle would have happened anyway. Humabon also showed up to the battle with over a thousand of his men and had originally asked Magellan for only one boat load of his men to help. It was Magellan who told Humabon to wait while his men attacked first. If Magellan had only helped out as asked, I am sure we would be reading about a very different battle and we would have a more accurate description of warfare at the time, probably from Magellan's perspective. In the mistranslated Pifagetta document it says that Magellan was hit by a poisoned arrow. Other sources say that it was a poisoned hard wood javelin type of weapon. Later expeditions also comment on the surprising accuracy the indios had with these weapons and include descriptions of how the weapons were made and poisons were secured. Can you imagine being on the receiving end of a hundred fire hardened poisoned bahi javelins! We do know that Magellan waded into the Mangrove and brush swamps with only 49 men and met a force of over a thousand. Pifagetta puts the number at 1500, Francisco Albo_in his log put the number at 6000, Transylvanus puts the number at 5000. We also know that the forces did not engage in hand to hand combat for 30 minutes and just shot at each other with projectile weapons. Hand to hand combat did not begin until Magellan had ordered a portion of his force to flank through the jungle and burn the villages and after he and others had been hit by the poisoned projectile weapons. Magellan never even reached the beach. In the end there was just eight defenders verses the horde of Visayan warriors. We do know that Magellan was killed by a warrior with a Kampilan, but do not know if that warrior was Lapu-Lapu. Lastly in the week after the battle, the Spanish through one of Humabon's messengers sent a message to Lapu-Lapu saying that they would offer any merchandise they requested in return for Magellan's body. The reply that came back was that "They would not give up such a man for all the riches in the world, but would keep him as a memorial of their victory." Hope that was helpful. Also if my research contradicts what you've been told. It's not my intent, its just what I have found. As new information becomes available information will change again. Elrik Jundis School of Pilipino Mastery Arts --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Bobbe Edmonds" To: Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 18:07:53 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] The loss of another giant... Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net R.I.P., Master Girion. You will be missed. Bobbe Edmonds --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Sources for Info on Lapu-Lapu & 16th Century Philippines To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 19:03:50 PDT Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Elrik, Excellent info! Thanks. Barangay is one of my favorites, too, and on my recommended list. > Also most folks are ignorant of the fact that Magellan had been exploring in > what is now Indonesia and Malaysian from 1507 to 1511: ten years before his > famous death in Mactan. Right. I've read that Magellan had almost reached what are now the Philippines well prior to his famous voyage, but from the other direction. When he did arrive in the Philippines on his now famous voyage he ran into a man that he knew from his previous voyages. One of those 'small world' stories that I love... Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Steven Lefebvre" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 02:40:02 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Master Giron's passing Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net With a sad heart, I wish to offer the condolences of Tuhon Christopher Sayoc, the Sayoc family and the Sayoc Kali organization, to the family of Master Leo Giron. Thank you for your service to this country, the Philippines, as well as his devoted teachings to the Filipino martial arts community. Gumagalang Guro Steve L. www Sayoc.com www.Bjinkandojo.net _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 19:55:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Heather Kiesling To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Lapu-lapu Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Thank you to everyone who gave me additional information on Lapu-Lapu. Everything was very helpful and has pointed me in a few new directions. Heather LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. 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