Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 17:01:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 9 #222 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.8 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sender: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net List-Help: List-Post: X-Subscribed-Address: rterry@idiom.com List-Subscribe: List-Id: Inayan Eskrima / FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Today's Topics: 1. (no subject) (eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net) 2. Re: 7th WEKAF (eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net) 3. RE : Stick Effectiveness (eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net) 4. review (eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net) 5. "Sticks" Excellent Weapons (eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net) 6. In response to Ray Terry's message (eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net) 7. Re: "wild bill" (eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net) 8. Police Baton in real world action (eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net) 9. Size isn't the only thing.... (eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net) 10. Manila Day (eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net) --__--__-- Message: 1 To: Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 16:35:31 -0700 From: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] (no subject) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Below is from Wild Bill, I will post no more on this issue, i don't feel this was deserved as I took no cheap shots Phil I learned of your comments that you had made about me and I didn't know that your instructor had issues with me. Perhaps if you had told me instead of eskrima digest, we could have discussed the issue. I think it's unfair that you don't know me personally yet passed judgement on me as you did without giving me an opportunity to hear about it. Cheap shots are another way to see it but as they say, what goes around comes around. BK --__--__-- Message: 2 To: "Eskrima Digest" Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 21:37:07 -0400 From: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: 7th WEKAF Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Jon wrote:>>>>>> As I understand matters at the moment, the competition is being arranged by John James (formerly Rapid Arnis Bristol now Kapatiran Arnis) and will take place at the Elephant & Castle in London leisure centre. That is all I know. Is anyone coming? List members involved? I would love to know. Jon >>>> >>>> I'll be there. BTW, anyone have any advice for packing and transporting my instruments through customs from the USA? Stick, dull alum. knives, and aluminum palakol. Steve Van Harn Arnis Sikaran - Jornales system --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 08:43:34 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net From: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] RE : Stick Effectiveness Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Currently, in law enforcement, we are relegated to attacking only a few certain areas with the sticks. These areas, after hitting quite a few people and seeing quite a few people hit, don't work for squat. While speaking with a veteran officer who worked in the 60's, sticks were your best friend. I asked him how that could be as they were ineffective now. He said we're not allowed to hit peop like like you were then. He recalled ending many a fight back then with a really, really hard blow to the HEAD with a stick. he said that put 'em down real quick. His second best friend was a lead weighted blackjack. According to him, you learned how to hit someone just hard enough to knock them out, but not hard enough to kill them. All this with a blissful sigh for yesteryear from him as he shakes his head and speaks of the strange new world of law enforcement .....:) In closing I guess what I'm trying to get at is don't condemn the the stick as an effetcive tool, just condemn the method with which it is used. And the crappy "Time On Target" stuff they teach us now, sheesh...... --__--__-- Message: 4 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net (Eskrima) Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 07:16:24 -0700 (PDT) From: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] review Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Just forwarding for a friend... Ray ------------------------------- Just got back from a three-day knifework seminar with Pete Kautz of Alliance Martial Arts (http://www.alliancemartialarts.com). Right forearm battered to hell, strange muscles aching and brain still trying to assimilate three days' intensive material. I'll say it up front - the teaching was fantastic, more than worth every penny and second invested. Pete's enthusiasm for his subject, his research and his instructing ability shone through the whole course; it's pretty infectious, and everyone seemed to be having a great time. There were twenty of us martial artists in all, knife experience ranging from some tai chi students with none at all to some with considerable fencing and short-sword work; representatives of Chinese, Japanese, Pacific, Russian and Western European arts - a very friendly bunch. The first day covered medieval close-quarter combat; from translated German training manuals, we know that Europeans had a pretty developed technical skill in knifework, with disarms and principals as detailed and formalised as many of the Pacific arts. The culture obviously makes a big difference, though, so some familiar techniques were presented in a new way or with new variations. The next day covered Bowie knife styles, principally fencing techniques brought from Europe and adapted to the shorter blade; the final day was modern knife combatives, including the practicalities of carrying, drawing and applying legal blades. Interspersed with the instruction were drills of all shapes and sizes that gradually built up the realism and intensity, history lessons and footnotes from the various sources to add a little 'flavour' to the techniques, and fun warm-up games and patterns that everyone will be taking home and adding to their club repertoires, to liven up the Boring Bit at the Start. It was a great seminar; I'd recommend Pete (and Alliance in general) to anyone interested in learning or developing their knifework at whatever level. Pete's got a lot of experience in several arts (such Filipino knife and western wrestling), so he can relate the details in a way that is understandable to people in a wide range of backgrounds. Thanks to John Gardiner of the Zhong Ding association (http://www.zhong-ding.com) for organising it. The material is informative, the skill development is progressive and logical and above all, the stuff you learn will practically benefit your training and fighting skills. It's all really good stuff, as judged by someone who flatters himself that he knows the difference! I know Kev Hill and Badger can back me up on it if necessary... If you get the chance, I'd urge you to go and see him - or organise a seminar yourselves. Cheers --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 10:20:28 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net From: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] "Sticks" Excellent Weapons Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sticks are excellent weapons to detain or subdue.....:( Auch!!!! getting hit sucks. Ray Kubiak a good friend was an MP during the Korean war, he was on leave in Japan. A fight broke out by Millitary personal, and as he was telling me was pretty interesting. The Japanese Police came in swingining, he heard Moan, groan, crack!!! not too long after, people were carried out with broken arms hand and not so good looking legs. According to Ray Kubiak US Army, who was not a martial artist, the excellent knowledge to wield a stick from the Japanese police made the stick an excellent weapon for it intended use. If the Cave man would use a bigger stick and he would have been trained in any of the Kali or Silat war attributes, a 1 7/8 stick will kill if the hit is placed just below the back of the head. Fact!!!!!! Do not have to prove in reality on humans Hit the weight per LBS Pound and the breaking power when measured, it goes beyond the ability for the neck to absorb that well placed force. Again in the case of the Police, great detaining weapon In the Dog Brothers Gatering, fantasic weapon and tool for having fun And yes I do remember The Big Gahuna Dog Brother (Crafty) giving me the stick And yes, a small person can play with the bigger stick, pending how it is played with. My wife is 5.1 and has been handling horses on her Ranch, so she is pretty strong in her hands wielding a smaller diameter stick or the larger and longer stick. So pending on the game or the person, it does matter with the stick Play, detain or disengaged. And yes, if it gets rougher and serious out there in Police land, some friends in Colorado in the force use 45 tools. We call them flying plugs to stop. <<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>> Clear Creek County Sheriffs department, Under Sherif Stu Nay has some great experiences using the Stick, were it is a better weapon for the intended use rather then the firearm. For their close encounters to detain, the police batton is still an excellent weapon to get to the Drunk, or drugie, also a fact. They do sing the song, sing a song of Tumping we would go. So yes they do carry a stick, just ask them of the would go without the stick. They be looking at you with a "Yeah Right!!!!!! look "The 45", "The Stick", "The Blade", "The Pepper Spray" and anyting that can be found to do their Job properly, not a game. The do it every day at their Fuction and Choosen Profession in the use of the excellent weapon called the stick. Nothing like the sound of a woosh! Crack !!! That sucks........:-) The intended use, and the preference Pak Vic << I have always felt the stick is a matter of practitioneer size and style. It is rare that a small guy can wield a big stick well nor can a big guy use a small stick well. The body and its mechanics is part of the dynamics of what makes the "sweet spot" in each stick unique to each user. Taking two equally sized guys the caveman tends to be more effective with a big stick . The technician with good mobility better with smaller but more hits. Police files are replete with perps who keep coming after police have unloaded a 9mm into the perp. It becomes pretty obvious that the stick is a poor weapon and size does not matter. If sticks were really good against the majority of unarmed drunks, drug addicts, and petty theif police would just carry a big stick. Regards, Carlton H. Fung, D.D.S. Torrance, Ca. --__--__-- Message: 6 To: "'eskrima@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 11:42:32 -0400 From: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] In response to Ray Terry's message Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net From: Ray Terry To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net (Eskrima) Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 21:51:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Eskrima] June 24 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Manila Day is almost upon us! June 24 (looking for any excuse to party) Ray, that sounds like a good idea! What form does the celebration take in your area of the country? Speaking of good ideas, it would be a great idea to start planning now for the next annual Inayan Gathering. The Gathering in Wisconsin earlier this month was a super-instructive, 4-day training camp. In retrospect I'm delighted that I made provision for my son and me to attend. The instruction from multiple Masiribs and Guros was superior. The full contact was an enlightening experience. Coordination of all transportation, lodging, and social events after training was excellent. I highly recommend it to all reading the Digest. Check out the photos on our website -- http://www.inayaneskrima.com/intro.htm Bill Taylor --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 12:55:25 -0400 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] "wild bill" From: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Ray writes: <> Amen, Ray. I had the gall to publicly suggest that "Wild Bill" alter his "research" methods. When this yutz responded via one of his alter egos, I had the temerity to point out the rank foolishness of his reply. Old Billy responded by contacting the legal department where I work and accusing me of being part of a vast conspiracy to besmirch his good name. I'm not sure how one besmirches something Sir William tossed in the trash a long time ago, but that don't keep Billy from lobbing what grenades he can. Bottom line is regardless of what name he hides behind Wild Bill is one of these fellows who skulks around behind a keyboard seeking to stir up trouble. Contempt is all he's earned and all he deserves. Buz Grover --__--__-- Message: 8 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 17:16:29 +0000 From: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Police Baton in real world action Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Here is an interesting article relating to Police batons in actual use by Officer Mark Conroy, Sayoc Kali Full Instructor, Level 7. Taken from ”The Jersey Journal” Tuesday, December 4, 2001 15 Year Old drug Suspect tried to cut cop, police say The quick reactions of Police officer Mark Conroy may have saved his life when a 15 year old boy wanted on drug charges swung a knife at his neck Sunday night, officials said. According to reports the boy started acting edgy after police pulled up to the corner of Bayview Avenue and Martin Luther King Drive at 6:30 p.m. At the time they were searching for someone while investigating a drug incident police said. Reports said that after they arrived, the youth acted “nervous” and reached into his left jacket pocket suspiciously before he started to run away. But his path took him right by Conroy, who ordered him to stop running, officials said. Five feet from Conroy, he took out a silver bladed knife – which some officers later described as a steak knife-and swung the object toward Conroy’s head/neck area, reports said. Conroy ducked and nearly tackled the boy, officials said, forcing him to run into a parked car on the block of Bayview and drop the knife along with seven glass vials that appeared to contain cocaine. Soon the 15 year old was running again, this time headed south on Bergen Avenue, and then into an alleyway with Conroy in pursuit, reports said. In the alleyway, the boy continued to ignore Conroy’s commands to stop and at some point turned and charged the police officer with “clenched fists” police said All he met was the force of Conroy’s police baton, reports said, striking him on his forearms , forcing him to the ground until backup units were able to help with the arrest. Both Conroy, who complained of injuries to his left shoulder, right shin and right hand, and the boy who complained of pain in his right forearm, were transported to Jersey City Medical Center for treatment, police said. The boy faces several drug count as well as aggravated assault, assaulting a police officer, according to reports was taken to the Hudson County Youth Center in Secaucus. Gumagalang Guro Steve L.(Kayan Isa Guro Sayoc Kali) _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. --__--__-- Message: 9 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 19:34:54 +0000 From: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Size isn't the only thing.... Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net It becomes pretty obvious that the stick is a poor > weapon and size does not matter. If sticks were really good against the > majority of unarmed drunks, drug addicts, and petty theif police would > just > carry a big stick. > > Regards, > > Carlton H. Fung, D.D.S. > Torrance, Ca. Well, you have to take a couple of other things into perspective. We (FMA stylists) train for headshots, knee shots, heavy, full-power killing blows, crippling hand shots, etc. A law enforcement officer can't do that, not if he wants to keep his job & remain a free man. It's not that the stick can't do the job, the officers simply can't employ it to it's full capacity. England was mentioned in an earlier post, and their success in using sticks. Allow me to add Germany to that list, where I have seen cattle prods employed. This happens on a daily basis in these countries, but you never hear of it being "Police Brutality" over there, wanna know why? It is accepted as a standard for law enforcement, particularly where riots at sporting events are the order of the day. Throw dealing with terrorism alot longer than we (America) have into that mix also. Take a look at some news footage from the BBC at a soccer rally & you'll see a unique difference. Not to say English officers don't suffer from having their hands tied as well, but I know they are alot more free to use heavier impact shots with impunity than American cops. The criminal justice system in America is much more severe on cops than criminals, and I for one don't envy them thier jobs. I live in Seattle. Two days ago, a man in a neighboring city (Renton) ran naked into the street & started pounding on cars that had stopped at a light. A cop came over & tried to subdue the man. There was a struggle, in which the cop fell to the ground, and his gun fell out on one side of him, & the magazine on the other. The naked guy GETS BOTH COMPONENTS, loads the gun & empties it into the officer. He then just walks back over to his apartment. If this had happened in England or Germany, I'd be willing to bet the officer would be alive right now, & the killer would, at minimum, be in a coma. --__--__-- Message: 10 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net (Eskrima) Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 16:59:22 -0700 (PDT) From: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Manila Day Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net How will I celebrate Manila Day??? Pancit, Chicken Adobo, lots of San Miquel beer and then lock-n-block until you drop... :) Ray Terry --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of Eskrima Digest