Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 09:25:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 9 #226 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.8 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sender: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net List-Help: List-Post: X-Subscribed-Address: rterry@idiom.com List-Subscribe: List-Id: Inayan Eskrima / FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Unsubscribe: Status: OR Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<-------- The Inayan/Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list -------->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). http://InayanEskrima.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Effectiveness of the "stick" (eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net) 2. stick still crappy? (eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net) 3. Defining Doce Pares (eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net) 4. Filipino Silat? (eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net) 5. covering the bases (eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net) 6. Proof? (eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net) 7. Re: Complementary arts (eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net) 8. Re: IMA vs. FMA (eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net) 9. Wild Bill (eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 21:38:56 -0700 (PDT) To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net From: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Effectiveness of the "stick" Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I just had to respond to this one. I have some experience with the ASP collapsible baton in a street fight application. I promise you, it works! I recently had an encounter with multiple opponents in a dark parking lot. All of them larger than I, all of them intoxicated from using various distilled and rope-making substances. I ended the possibly nasty confrontation with one well-placed, (trying to be humble here) shot to the thigh of the largest opponent. He dropped like a rusty muffler. His friends couldn't really see what I had done,(Sometimes the dark really is on our side) and decided that discretion was the better part of valor and left with their friend. I have family involved in law-enforcement in an unnamed British colony and all they carry is the ASP. The stories that I have heard about a couple of cops confronting machete wielding psychos would curl your hair and yet the stick is it. Not even pepper spray. I'm thinking that if you analyze the short comings of the "stick" and compare them to the positively infinite applications, both defensive and offensive, one must reach the necessary conclusion that while the stick is man's oldest and least mechanically complicated weapon, it is at the same time the most complex and subtle weapon in the arsenal that we, as a race, have created since leaving the cave. This is coming from a former Marine, deer-hunter firearms geek turned infant escrimador. Honestly, if we didn't belive in the effectiveness of the "stick" we wouldn't be spending our time playing escrima-arnis-kali, we would all be enrolled at the Gunsite Academy or Thunder Ranch. It is just my thought that law enforcement personnel probably have little or no experience hitting a person with an ASP. It is a difficult thing to willingly inflict a grievous injury to another human. That is unless one is a bit off. I have made a few converts among the LE community that I know personally. They are starting to see that the academy really didn't teach them squat about using the baton. Thanks for listening to my rant! Train hard, be safe! ===== Better to be hated for who you are than loved for who you are not. Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 2 To: Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 23:02:45 -0700 From: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] stick still crappy? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net The Dentist struck a nerve with that crack about the stick being a crappy weapon on a stickfighting list. What the hell does he know anyway? Sorry to offend but the stick is still a crappy weapon. We sure saw many responses to "Does size matter". Someone posted how his 5'1" wife could wield big or small sticks. Well If the person is a bruiser type relative to their size then the bigger sticks usually suit. If the person is on the technical side, the smaller stick and better skills usually suit the individual better. The reason you all probably have a "favorite stick" is that if you do the math, physics dictates the sweet spot of what you swing. Your body mechanics, and physical make up determine the sweet spot as does the weapon itself. Someone posted about the cop who got shot with his own weapon. Many police carry a pr24 or hard stick. I didn't hear in that post whether the stick was pulled out. The cop would have time if the perp had time to pick up the gun and clip and load and cock and fire. Stick did not save cop. Second cop story was about the perp who wielded a knife at cop and cop "tackled" perp...he did not pull stick except to pursue perp. The weapon was a sharp policeman not the stick. Someone else posted about how FMA train for headshots killing blows etc... Sorry these things are mostly simulated and even with gear few can hit with any decent power. I have been at this game for 30 years and I have been hit "once" hard in the head that took me off my feet by one Island Dog. Thank God for headgear. However, I could still continue. Maybe I train with wimps but I do not think so. We have been trying to kill ourselves for 30 years but guess what it can't be done. When you train this stuff it is a lot harder than you think to do damage. The absolute proof in the pudding is that most of us shy a few braincells are still here. Lets look at a few attributes of a good weapon: 1)Availability/handiness...You can sit in your car or at a dinner table with your gun holstered easier than you can with your stick hanging by your side. Which can you put into action under the most conditions? 2)cancelable/unobtrusiveness...You can pocket an edged weapon but that 2 ft stick is a bit obvious. Is that a banana in your pants or are you happy to see me? 3)good handling characteristics...Holstered gun or clipped knife always in the same reproducible place from which to draw. Stick in a lanyard always flops around effecting your time to put into service. 4)controllable in force application...It is easy to escalate force with a gun. Deadly force on presentation is more readily acknowledged by all. More people will challenge a stick. Some will challenge a knife. Only the stupid challenge a gun. 5)useable under adverse conditions...You can use a gun as long as you can pull a trigger. You can use an edged weapon as long as you can swing your arm. Effective stick use requires proper body mechanics when standing. 6)multiple attacker...When there are multiple attackers 6 bullets beats 6 stick swings and it is faster and allows #7 7)application while in defensive position...When you use a stick you have to confront. You can use a gun while taking cover. Weapons give you options and should be choosen with that in mind. As the live cop who reacted by tackling the perp who had the knife rather than try to draw a weapon proves that your best weapon is your brain. Dog Brothers has proved to the masses how you can hit full power with a stick and keep coming. Most DB competitors are annoyed but not stopped by unprotected body shots. The emotions of the DB competitor is not rage or self-preservation which is an equalizer somewhat to hard sticks, drugs etc.. The stick makes practitioners feel safe because the think they have a superior weapon and they think they can hit hard and they think they can control the fighting measure. All I can say is the stick is equivalent to empty hand to mildly advantaged. If You don't believe that? Ask Big Erv who was put down by a non-stick wielding Fernando by a common BJJ takedown and "BJJ ground and pound". Crafty has that Gathering on tape right? Regards, Carlton H. Fung, D.D.S. Torrance, Ca. --__--__-- Message: 3 To: Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 00:18:51 -0700 From: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Defining Doce Pares Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >I do, however, think that Doce Pares Eskrima/Eskrido *is* a "complete and all-around style that is adequate for all fighting ranges." Its *preference* (or maybe specialty is a better term) is definitely mid and close range work ... but that doesn't mean it's lacking in the long range.< That was better than my pathetic attempt. Thanks, Mike. Bobbe --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 02:55:29 -0700 (PDT) To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net From: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Filipino Silat? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Yes, there are some styles of Silat that are not Penjak Silat but which are rather from southern Philippines (Basilan, Sulu, and Lanao) but strictly speaking they are not FMA. A lot of ideologues among the southerner Muslim Filipinos do not even consider themselves Filipinos but as merely grafted into the Republic of the Philippines by America in the 1930's against their will. Strictly speaking though, Penjak Silat is not Filipino, although I agree with people who would like to explore the similarities and links between FMA and Silat since it highlights the very plentiful similarities between them as to concepts and techniques and avoids FMA from falling into the image of merely the Filipino style of fencing using sticks. ===== Earn $$ just by receiving and reading email! http://www.resource-a-day.net/member/index.cgi?Brandon96 Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 5 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net (Eskrima) Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 06:07:03 -0700 (PDT) From: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] covering the bases Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Honestly, if we didn't belive in the effectiveness of > the "stick" we wouldn't be spending our time playing > escrima-arnis-kali, we would all be enrolled at the > Gunsite Academy or Thunder Ranch. IMO, we should enroll in Gunsite or TR or http://martialartsresource.com/firearms.htm regardless. Ray Terry --__--__-- Message: 6 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net (Eskrima) Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 06:15:50 -0700 (PDT) From: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Proof? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Dog Brothers has proved to the masses how you can hit full power with > a stick and keep coming. Most DB competitors are annoyed but not stopped > by unprotected body shots. What has been proven is that a full power strike to the wrong target (or the right, but protected target) isn't necessarily effective. imho, people sometimes worry too much about power and not enough about placement. Ray Terry --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 07:47:06 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) To: From: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Complementary arts Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net It all depends on what you're getting so far. It's kind of like taking medicine or vitamins. They're great but only if they're the right ones for your condition. Tiel and I took up Guinean drumming close to a year ago. It's turned out to be one of the most useful things we've ever done for our martial arts. A lot of the exercises and drills we had done in FMA suddenly made sense when they were informed by a more sophisticated sense of timing, To put it a little more honestly, I had as much rhythm as your typical White American and needed a kick-start :-) As soon as her broken fibula finishes healing she's going to drag me off to African dance class. Oh well. It will probably help. And at least it will get me into shape (a different shape. I'm already round :-) Maybe footwork is what your teacher is weak on. If there's a lot of straight-in straight-out and Karate-like stances something like Capoeira Angola could be what you need. Or some kind of ground grappling if you're uncomfortable at that range. It all depends on what strengths and weaknesses you already have. --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 07:58:42 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) To: From: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: IMA vs. FMA Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Biologists spend a lot of time classifying things. There are whole schools and careers built around nothing but this. The biggest source of tension is between the "splitters" and "lumpers". The splitters emphasize (I'm over simplifying here) differences. They tend to break the world down into finer and finer divisions. The lumpers concentrate on similarities and build trees with fewer branches. Same thing here. Are IMA and FMA part of one thing, or are they different? Are you a splitter or a lumper? It comes down to personal preference. The two certainly overlap. There are historical connections. To someone who has only seen Japanese martial arts a Southern Filipino stylist and someone from the Eastern part of Indonesia will look about the same. But even a beginner can point out the important differences between Harimau and Serrada. Someone asked if there is some sort of database of IMA instructors. The short answer is "no". People have tried, but it hasn't worked so far. Besides, there just aren't as many in the Americas. --__--__-- Message: 9 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 15:53:09 +0000 From: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Wild Bill Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net This Wild Bill sounds like a rather unfortunate case. He should realize that the dirt you throw at others only comes from the ground beneath your own feet- African Proverb. Thanks for keeping a clean forum for the rest of us. RW _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of Eskrima Digest