Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 23:07:49 -0500 Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 9 #227 - 7 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.8 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net From: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net Sender: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net List-Help: List-Post: X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Subscribe: List-Id: Inayan Eskrima / FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Unsubscribe: Status: O Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<-------- The Inayan/Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list -------->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). http://InayanEskrima.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Sticks Bad?? (eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net) 2. stick/baton/what have you... (eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net) 3. Re: GM Ciriaco "Cacoy" Canete seminar schedule (eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net) 4. RE: Defining Doce Pares (eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net) 5. The Flavian Point (eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net) 6. Does size matter (eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net) 7. Disagree (eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net) --__--__-- Message: 1 To: Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 12:52:28 -0400 From: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Sticks Bad?? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sorry guys and gals... I came into this thread a little late... Just wondering but why are you trying to compare a stick to a gun? That is like comparing apples to watermelons. Under the right conditions any weapon is king. Some might be king more often than not but all have there day. As for the effectivness of sticks, I have to agree with Mr. Terry. Placement is the key. I might hit you as hard as I can in the head and you would just be dazed but able to continue. However, a well placed nerve shot might leave you conscience but unable to continue. This reminds me of an old saying...the bigest of trees can be felled with the smallest hatchet if you know where to put it... (have no idea where I heard that one...) anyway this is just my opinion. Thanks Michael Barnes www.inayaneskrima.com barnes@inayaneskrima.com Inayan Systems International --__--__-- Message: 2 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 13:30:13 -0400 From: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] stick/baton/what have you... Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net It has been my experience that a hard, properly placed, baton hit will drop a resisting offender the majority of the time. Unfortunately, proper placement and proper leverage can go all to hell in the heat of the moment. Some people do seem more resistant ("high pain-threshold troglodytes" I believe Crafty calls them); sometimes the chemicals help them to fight, sometimes not. I've dropped a guy on PCP with three solid leg strikes and start crying; I've seen a guy on cocaine take an ureal amount of punishment and still flee on foot. Part of the problem is that many officers are afraid of the paperwork, or of getting in trouble that they never use the baton, and therefore never learn to use it right. Just my 2 cents; Chad --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 12:12:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Eskrima] GM Ciriaco "Cacoy" Canete seminar schedule To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net From: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Ray, Thank, I didn't mean I wasn't going to Mr. Edwards. If possible I like to make all three seminars, that's if my wife lets me LOL. It's just that Morganville and AC are closer to where I am than Livingstone. (I'm not even sure where that is...up north I believe)Thanks again,Kevin LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 14:23:45 -0500 Subject: RE: [Eskrima] Defining Doce Pares To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net From: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net LOL ... well, I have to areas that I work hard at ... one is, of course, mutual beatings in the pursuit of understanding and, two, writing (often about the mutual beatings). I'm glad it's paying off :-) Mike -----Original Message----- From: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net [mailto:eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net] Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 2:19 AM To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Defining Doce Pares >I do, however, think that Doce Pares Eskrima/Eskrido *is* a "complete and all-around style that is adequate for all fighting ranges." Its *preference* (or maybe specialty is a better term) is definitely mid and close range work ... but that doesn't mean it's lacking in the long range.< That was better than my pathetic attempt. Thanks, Mike. Bobbe _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- Message: 5 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 20:17:52 +0000 From: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] The Flavian Point Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >"Someone posted how his 5'1" wife could wield big or small sticks. Well If the person is a bruiser type relative to their size then the bigger sticks usually suit. If the person is on the technical side, the smaller stick and better skills usually suit the individual better. The reason you all probably have a "favorite stick" is that if you do the math, physics dictates the sweet spot of what you swing. Your body mechanics, and physical make up determine the sweet spot as does the weapon itself."< This is a stereotype. You say you have been in "This Game" for 30 years, I assume you mean FMA-specific? Have you not seen ANY exceptions to this rule? Have you never had a big bruiser type use skill instead of streangth alone? Ever had a skinny drink of water throw caution to the wind & just come crashing down your chimney, ho-ho-ho? From your post, I'm going to assume you are involved with DBMA, if this is not the case please excuse me. Having said that, How would you define Marc Knaus? I've seen him (on video) play the hit & run with skill, & I've seen the crash & overwhelm. Guro Crafty, same thing. Thier body makeup is different, and they obviously have favorite methods, yet we find an underlying versatility in thier training. I train with large clubs, India-style maces, tree branches, to whip-thin dowel rods. From time to time I work out with sticks the size of car axles (Size, not weight). Guro Inosanto speaks of not getting too attached to a favorite weapon, range, or terrain, as you have to fight with whatever is handy. That body mechanics & physical makeup dictate swing & effectivness of chosen weapon is true, & needs to be addressed realistically. If you look for truth in your training, you will discover your limitations & work towards fighting efficiently in spite of them. Let's look at a person with average build, 120 Lbs. In a real fight of any kind, the heavier the weapon, the less opportunity to strike. The lighter the weapon, the less liklihood to do incapacitating damage. THIS is where skill & time in training comes into play. The smart fighter with the heavier weapon knows his physical makeup & weight of the club will only allow him limited power shots. Same theory with a lighter weapon, he will have to keep a range, while continuosly striking without relenting. His targets will make all the difference, and that is what I mean by skill. If heavier, I would favor the hands or side of head, or knee, if I could reach it. If lighter, I'm aiming for eyes, throat, groin or fingers, continuosly, whatever of these targets I could lure into range. You speak of the sweet spot, and for sure it's the one to watch, but you omitted thrusts & punyos. I am aware of the consensus that such are usless, but then again, skill & time in training these is the critical factor. It makes all the difference in the world. >"Someone posted about the cop who got shot with his own weapon. Many police carry a pr24 or hard stick. I didn't hear in that post whether the stick was pulled out. The cop would have time if the perp had time to pick up the gun and clip and load and cock and fire. Stick did not save cop. Second cop story was about the perp who wielded a knife at cop and cop "tackled" perp...he did not pull stick except to pursue perp. The weapon was a sharp policeman not the stick."< In both examples you cite, the idea of training is really in question, is it not? What sort of restrictions for using these weapons are imposed on law enforcement officers? Also, being the one who posted about the office getting shot with his own weapon, I KNOW that I mentioned them not being able to attack full-bore without severe consequences from the judicial system. In both cases, the police responded with what they had TRAINED for, and the limitations that had been IMPOSED on them, not with examples of how powerful a weapon the club is. Although it illustrates a disturbing point, this is the truth of it: They were reacting as thier training dictates. >"Someone else posted about how FMA train for headshots killing blows etc... Sorry these things are mostly simulated and even with gear few can hit with any decent power. I have been at this game for 30 years and I have been hit "once" hard in the head that took me off my feet by one Island Dog. Thank God for headgear. However, I could still continue. Maybe I train with wimps but I do not think so. We have been trying to kill ourselves for 30 years but guess what it can't be done. When you train this stuff it is a lot harder than you think to do damage. The absolute proof in the pudding is that most of us shy a few braincells are still here."< Once again, stereotypical, and not reflective of the truth. Do you think everyone trains for simulation only? Your post implies this. I applaud the Dog Brothers for paving the way of realisim, but it is not the ONLY style that trains with full-power shots to unprotected areas. One of the tapes shows an abaniko backhand to the metacarpals of the opponent. Guro Crafty's narrative says: "It would be difficult to tell if that would have done any damage without the gear". Well, no, not at all. TAKE OFF THE GEAR. You will find out the truth, either positive or no, in a matter of nanoseconds. The hands, particularly the fingers, cannot withstand that kind of punishment. You mention Island Dog got a good head shot....Was it ONE head shot? How about 20? Could you continue on then? I quote: "When you train this stuff it is a lot harder than you think to do damage." Well, yeah, but it's alot easier than you make it out to be. Again, the model is different for everyone, it all depends on the variables (skill, size, streangth, time in training, attitude, terrain, weather, pain threshold, etc, ad infinitum) Why is the proof that most of you shy a few brain cells are still here? Alot of Harvard grads are still around too, what does that say? I've only been doing this for half as long as you have, but to give you an idea, I'm 220, 5ft, 9in, train religiously seven days a week in four arts. I jog, lift, & streach. I believe in full contact, blood and bones. I am used to pain, even comfortable to some degree with it. I train with people who couldn't muscle thier way out of a wet paper bag, but they hit hard, fast & continuosly. They have broken my fingers, I have lost my stick, & danced a funky chicken to the gods of pain. >"Lets look at a few attributes of a good weapon:"< (Mind if I sit in on this?) >"1)Availability/handiness...You can sit in your car or at a dinner table with your gun holstered easier than you can with your stick hanging by your side. Which can you put into action under the most conditions?"< Agreed, although I would like to point out that you could do so with a knife just as well, with alot less obtrusiveness. Also, ever hear of a collapsable baton? >"2)cancelable/unobtrusiveness...You can pocket an edged weapon but that 2 ft stick is a bit obvious. Is that a banana in your pants or are you happy to see me?"< See above, but yes, I'm happy to see you. :)) >"3)good handling characteristics...Holstered gun or clipped knife always in the same reproducible place from which to draw. Stick in a lanyard always flops around effecting your time to put into service."< Ah, now you speak of the police baton...I still stick to my original point, a collapsable has the same ability, however, the gun doesn't need a large area to work in...It actually doesn't need to be unholstered. The baton certianly faces a drawback in this area, as it does need some manuvering room for effectiveness. >"4)controllable in force application...It is easy to escalate force with a gun. Deadly force on presentation is more readily acknowledged by all. More people will challenge a stick. Some will challenge a knife. Only the stupid challenge a gun."< Pardon my facetiousness here, but DUHH!! I thought this was about the effectiveness of the stick, not it's (and everything else short of a Howitzer) insignifigance against a gun. If I am attacked with a gun, the last thing going through my mind is gonna have "Smith & Wesson" stamped on it. >"5)useable under adverse conditions...You can use a gun as long as you can pull a trigger. You can use an edged weapon as long as you can swing your arm. Effective stick use requires proper body mechanics when standing."< Yeppers, no argument here. See my reply to point #3. If you don't train for it, yer gonna get stomped like a narc at a biker rally. >"6)multiple attacker...When there are multiple attackers 6 bullets beats 6 stick swings and it is faster and allows #7 7)application while in defensive position...When you use a stick you have to confront. You can use a gun while taking cover."< Lemme lump those two together. As stated in point #4, the gun is, of course the superior weapon. You should have stated this was your point from the beginning, you would have recieved a LOT less replies, as we all are in agreeance on this. I would like to point this out, however: 1:I never have to reload my stick, or knife. 2:I don't have to be a marksman to accurately control my stick, or knife. 3:I can use the knife underwater, or in all weather. 4:My stick or knife won't jam up on me. 5:My knife is alot less audibly demanding of attention when I am involved with a little wet work, and wish to remain unobtrusive myself. >"The stick makes practitioners feel safe because the think they have a superior weapon and they think they can hit hard and they think they can control the fighting measure. All I can say is the stick is equivalent to empty hand to mildly advantaged. If You don't believe that? Ask Big Erv who was put down by a non-stick wielding Fernando by a common BJJ takedown and "BJJ ground and pound". Crafty has that Gathering on tape right?"< They DO have a superior weapon, if you are talking about a distinct lack of guns. And, if they train hard, often, & realistically, they CAN hit hard & control the fighting measure. Further, they can emerge victorious, as I have witnessed against other players, & different arts altogether. Even DBMA practitioners! ;) As for Big Erv, I've seen that tape, and he was flat-out overwhelmed by the BJJ guy. Hindsight is always 50-50, and it's a little too easy to sit here & say "Well, I would have done so-and-so". Just bear in mind alot of BJJ people get whacked into Disneyland (tm), and it all comes down to the ARTIST, not the ART. The stick may be just a "crappy weapon" to you, that's your truth. I suck at pistol marksmanship, but I AM an avid bowhunter. Guess what I think a crappy weapon is?? ;) In retrospect, as I review this post, I would like to add one last thing to Dr. Fung, Guro Crafty, Guro Knaus, & the bazillion other DBMA practitioners that subscribe to this post. I have nothing but respect for all of you, and I don't think myself, or my style in any way superior to yours. I learn tremendously from your tapes, & seminars when I can attend. I apologize if I have offended, such was not my intention. Bobbe Edmonds --__--__-- Message: 6 To: "'eskrima@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 15:53:02 -0700 From: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Does size matter Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Speaking of stick sizes. I found that I preferred lighter, tapered sticks, with the fat end on the business portion of the stick. I have found that a smaller stick of this shape is more powerful than a larger stick held on the opposite end because of the relation between speed, mass, and power. Try it. You might like it! Guro Garry --__--__-- Message: 7 To: Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 12:31:55 -0700 From: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Disagree Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Woof All: My dentist wrote: > The Dentist struck a nerve with that crack about the stick being a crappy > weapon on a stickfighting list. And thanks for not striking mine when you work on my teeth :-) > What the hell does he know anyway? Sorry to > offend but the stick is still a crappy weapon. We sure saw many responses to > "Does size matter". Someone posted how his 5'1" wife could wield big or small > sticks. Well If the person is a bruiser type relative to their size then the > bigger sticks usually suit. If the person is on the technical side, the > smaller stick and better skills usually suit the individual better. The reason > you all probably have a "favorite stick" is that if you do the math, physics > dictates the sweet spot of what you swing. Your body mechanics, and physical > make up determine the sweet spot as does the weapon itself. May I tangentially observe that many people train with a narrow range of weapon sizes. If one wishes to be able to improvise with what the environment may offer, this may be a shortcoming. > (sundry stories deleted) , , , ... Sorry these > things are mostly simulated and even with gear few can hit with any decent > power. I agree to hit a moving uncooperative man can be a good trick and a lot of people lacking experience/training in this regard may be in for rude surprises under real time pressure. > I have been at this game for 30 years and I have been hit "once" hard > in the head that took me off my feet by one Island Dog. Thank God for > headgear. Island Dog is a quality fighter. He, and his opponents, ignore the fact of his relatively small size. I've had three staff fights with him and will vouch for that. In one of them he got in a good head shot where the mesh rests directly on the head that got my attention. >However, I could still continue. Maybe I train with wimps but I do > not think so. We have been trying to kill ourselves for 30 years but guess > what it can't be done. When you train this stuff it is a lot harder than you > think to do damage. The absolute proof in the pudding is that most of us shy a > few braincells are still here. Lets look at a few attributes of a good > weapon: > > 1)Availability/handiness...You can sit in your car or at a dinner table with > your gun holstered easier than you can with your stick hanging by your side. > Which can you put into action under the most conditions? I understand the point but there is more to it I think. If you are concerned about the straight line that continues for a mile or so containing innocent bystanders, there are times when the gun presents a problem. If you live in a jurisdiction that makes guns illegal, that is a drawback. If you think only in terms of rattan sticks, that is an unnecessary limitation. Top Dog has a story about putting a large screwdriver up the nose of some union goons on a job site for example. Pulling a gun in such circumstances might have been not only inappropriate, but left one vulnerable to civil and criminal system consequences. > 2)cancelable/unobtrusiveness...You can pocket an edged weapon but that 2 ft > stick is a bit obvious. Is that a banana in your pants or are you happy to see > me? Again, nothing against the usefulness of guns, but to be fair, two foot sticks are not the only option, especially in cooler environments. > 3)good handling characteristics...Holstered gun or clipped knife always in the > same reproducible place from which to draw. Stick in a lanyard always flops > around effecting your time to put into service. Lanyards not the only option. , , , > 5)useable under adverse conditions...You can use a gun as long as you can pull > a trigger. You can use an edged weapon as long as you can swing your arm. > Effective stick use requires proper body mechanics when standing. Ummm, I've had things go well on the ground too ;-) Indeed, one on one, the ground can be a wonderful place. IMHO it is much easier to do serious damage in this range. > 6)multiple attacker...When there are multiple attackers 6 bullets beats 6 > stick swings and it is faster and allows #7 A revolver man are ya? :-) > 7)application while in defensive position...When you use a stick you have to > confront. You can use a gun while taking cover. True. > Weapons give you options and should be choosen with that in mind. As the live > cop who reacted by tackling the perp who had the knife rather than try to draw > a weapon proves that your best weapon is your brain. Dog Brothers has proved > to the masses how you can hit full power with a stick and keep coming. Most DB > competitors are annoyed but not stopped by unprotected body shots. The > emotions of the DB competitor is not rage or self-preservation which is an > equalizer somewhat to hard sticks, drugs etc.. The stick makes practitioners > feel safe because the think they have a superior weapon and they think they > can hit hard and they think they can control the fighting measure. All I can > say is the stick is equivalent to empty hand to mildly advantaged. A couple of points-- I think people will react differently in many cases when the face/head are unprotected. Also, give me a 4 or 5 foot staff and I think I could work my way through a pretty cranky crowd. Give me a screwdriver and I think few individuals want to screw with me :-D. Give me a heavy phone cable with one end splayed like a mace, and I can take the pause that refreshes. Etc. Etc. The point is that I think you seem to be limiting your thinking to a generic light weight rattan stick. > If You > don't believe that? Ask Big Erv who was put down by a non-stick wielding > Fernando by a common BJJ takedown and "BJJ ground and pound". Crafty has that > Gathering on tape right? A great fight that was too, especially to those who were privy to the entire context ;-). But I do not think that it proves your point here. Big Erv's stick skills were well below average. What made him a fighter of note was that HE was a formidably fit 235 pound ground and pound fighter who closed like a linebacker. Machado BJJ black belt Fernando Vasconcelos (and Pan Am black belt champion etc) did not beat him with ground and pound, rather a single leg takedown that put Erv where he never had been-- on his back. The progression from there was classic (side control to mount and choke when the opponent gives back)-- but not ground and pound. BTW Fernando, (who trains with Rico at the RAW Gym now BTW) was due to fight again at King of the Cage this past weekend. Haven't heard the results, but I would be really surprised if he didn't win-- even with the knee injury. Look, I agree entirely on the merit of guns! And I appreciate the point that you make about the stick-- especially a generic rattan training stick in the hands of someone who thinks it is a magic wand and doesn't train in a way that prepares for reality. But "crappy"? Disagree. > Regards, > Carlton H. Fung, D.D.S. > > Dog Brothers has proved to the masses how you can hit full power with > > a stick and keep coming. Most DB competitors are annoyed but not stopped > > by unprotected body shots. > > What has been proven is that a full power strike to the wrong target (or > the right, but protected target) isn't necessarily effective. imho, > people sometimes worry too much about power and not enough about placement. > > Ray Terry Gotta have both! Woof, Crafty Dog --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of Eskrima Digest