Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 12:27:08 -0500 Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 9 #229 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.8 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net From: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net Sender: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net List-Help: List-Post: X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Subscribe: List-Id: Inayan Eskrima / FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Unsubscribe: Status: RO Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<-------- The Inayan/Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list -------->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). http://InayanEskrima.com See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. placement matters (eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net) 2. Re: Stick effectiveness in real world (eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net) 3. Effective of a stick (eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net) 4. GM Cacoy Seminar (eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net) 5. Disagree, part two (eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net) 6. Re: proof? (eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net) 7. Kali in the movies (eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net) 8. Re: Kali in the movies ?? (eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net) 9. A favor ... (eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net) --__--__-- Message: 1 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 00:13:14 -0400 From: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] placement matters Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >What has been proven is that a full power strike to the wrong target (or >the right, but protected target) isn't necessarily effective. imho, >people sometimes worry too much about power and not enough about placement. > >Ray Terry Ditto that, Master Ray. Similar experience we,ve had. Sgt. Bill Bill Evans _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com --__--__-- Message: 2 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 05:13:50 +0000 From: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Stick effectiveness in real world Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I have been following this discussion sporadically and I have to say that this has been one of the best discussions on E-digest so far. I appologize if I am re-treading. As far as a reality check, I can say that I am personally not capable of dropping an unwilling opponent with a stick and talking to some law enforcement contacts, it seems that strikes that traditionally were thought to incapacitate have not been effective. I have many law enforcement friends who have had experiences with either the PR 24 and ASP systems not performing as advertised (sorry, no Monadnock stories). One guy hit a pit bull in the head several times. Dog did not know it was supposed to drop. Other stories from other officers breaking knees, tibia on humans, various other bones without the perpetrator stopping. We are not talking rattan sticks. This mirrors the real world statistics on terminal ballistics so not even a handgun round can drop a human being reliably. Hard to predict how effective any one tool is because so many factors. An interesting little tid bit; I recently saw a bill of a baseball cap that had stopped a 12 gauge slug. The ball cap was on a target and you can see exactly where the slug hit the bill and did not penetrate. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. --__--__-- Message: 3 To: Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 14:11:53 +0800 From: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Effective of a stick Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net In my personal opinion, stick and stick techniques are very effective in self defense. Especially in some places where the procession and use of guns, ASP baton and Folder knife are strictly controlled. Stick can act as a "Equalizer" to bigger body size emeny, and can buy you some time for you to run away. If you don't have a stick, you can always use something similar , like a roll of newspaper, walking stick (e.g. mountain hiking stick, have a pointed end) for self-defense. I agree that stick may or may not be able to do serious damage to the bad guys, but at least it will be better than using empty hand only. Believe it or not, a roll of newspaper with a Chop Stick rolled inside as a harden core, can smash a construction sand brick with one good shot. gary Philippine Martial Art Federation (Hong Kong) www.arnis.com.hk --__--__-- Message: 4 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 12:02:15 +0000 From: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] GM Cacoy Seminar Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net 1) Hi Ray , thanks for the plug for GM Cacoy's seminar. Anyone needing directions to our school can find them by going to our web site at www.imafit.com. 2) As far as the topic of Doce Pares being a complete system - our curriculum, which is quite extensive and approaching "novel" proportions, covers everything from weapons to empty hand to kicking to dumog..medio, largo and corto ranges.. while we also teach kickboxing, BJJ and JKD, Doce Pares can easily be a "stand alone" system - and I know of a number of excellent schools (Colorado, Mass. NY and my instructor "Dong Cueata" in NJ that teach just that and have a great program. Thanks Don Edwards _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. --__--__-- Message: 5 To: Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 05:52:58 -0700 From: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Disagree, part two Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Woof All: For the record, Doc Fung has no affiliation with DBMA (Dog Brothers Martial Arts) or the Dog Brothers. If I have it right, he is a friend and sparring partner to Island Dog-- who also has no affiliation with DBMA. The rest of it I leave up to him to explain or not as he wishes. I would like to make a couple of additional points concerning drawing lessons from watching our fights: Not only is there the matter of the gear, minimal as it is, there is the matter of "Friends at the end of the day". There are shots that are not taken or are delivered at less than full power. As an example of the headgear issue, in the first of my doublestick fights that appears in our video "A Dog Brothers Gathering of the Pack" in the opening exchange I knock my opponent's mask off his head with a pair of face shots. Yes it can't be proved, but I was there and know what the two shots in question had on them. IMO there was a substantial probability that a lot of people would have not wanted to continue fighting. Later in the same fight when he is in my guard and I crack him in the head with a punyo I pulled it substantially. I could have caved it in-- literally. I could have been stabbing repeatedly at his unprotected face with the mid grip stick a few seconds later, but didn't. At the end of the fight I had a Bando Python hold that prevented him from defending himself and could have been repeatedly delivering as many full force punyos to his unprotected face as I wanted. Instead I went for his exposed elbow nerve as I said "You should give up now" (He agreed). I trust that it is understood that this is "No brag, just fact"-- simply a desire to speak of what I personally KNOW because I was there. In the same video, the same Big Erv that Doc uses in one of his examples could have been seriously laid out by Salty Dog several times as he tried to close and eventually did close successfully due to Salty's friendship. I KNOW how hard Salty can hit ;-) and KNOW how much he was both pulling and no t taking shots to the very exposed back of Big Erv's head. I remember the size of the swellings afterwards on his head from even the love taps that Salty was delivering. I think this fight would be a better example of the merits of the stick in capable hands than Fernando Vasconcelos's fight-- Fernando doesn't know diddly about the stick. There was a worthy opponent (WO) that Top Dog fought who had excellent leg locks (as well as good training in a quality FMA system) and in previous fights had used them very successfully. When he came to fight TD though, he wanted to use very light sticks. I would go so far as to say that they were nearly a joke. This is not a criticism-- it was a way of handicapping TD's substantially superior skill with the stick in order to make for a better fight. If memory serves (it would take too long to locate the fight at the moment) the WO survived not one but two separate quality backhands to the head. Having been dropped hard by one of TD's backhands (as seen in #1 in the first series) I KNOW what this shot is, and thus am confident in saying that the weight (and indeed, the flexibility) of the stick combined with the mask not being a "first generation" mask rendered these shots ineffective. The fight went on and was very exciting in the grappling range with the WO almost getting a heel hook, indeed he might have but for the fact that TD was fighting barefoot-- and didn't punyo him in the unprotected face and instead went for a fang which didn't work because of the flex in the stick. His students went home excited that their teacher had "almost beaten" the great Top Dog-- and that is great. Part of the beauty of "No judges, no trophies, no referees" is that every one draws the lessons that they do and that they don't have to be the same lessons. There was a fight that Hound Dog was in where his opponent kept retreating and retreating and retreating so in order to make the fight Hound Dog had to seriously overextend his close--after all, he came to fight, not to safely score a win on aggression in the eyes of the judges as might have been the case against such tactics at a tournament. It was great, the crowd roared, Hound Dog got his wrist broken (it took him two days to figure this out -) ) and as the fight went to the clinch, his opponent's mask came off. In order to continue the fight, Hound Dog attacked his opponent's legs (if memory serves he had something of an underhook hold with his left hand) instead of his unprotected head. Who knows what would have happened if he had gone after the head? Again, each person draws the lessons that they do. Some saw another proof that our fights are sloppy unskilled messes. The opponent saw proof that his retreating game worked and that his power was good and he now bills himself as "undefeated at DB Gatherings". Some saw his retreating game as valid for the street but kinda chicken***t for a Gathering. Hound Dog simply saw a need to expand his closing game. Ina similar vein I developed the Attacking Blocks drill. Its up to each of us what we get out of watching a fight. Stickfights move really fast and there is A LOT going on. I've been doing this a long time and not only do I have a fair number of fights (140?) but I have seen literally THOUSANDS of stickfights (many of them as "Ringmaster"-- which is the best seat in the house!) Even with this background, it is often that I do not see something about a fight until I have watched the video of it many times, often with the benefit of quality slo-mo in the editing studio. If this is true for me, what of those who only get to see a given fight once from the sidelines? When I give "the magic words" to the fighters at the beginning of the day they include "No judges, no trophies, no referees, no trophies". What do these words mean? "No judges" what other people think of you is none of your business. YOU draw the lessons you wish. "No trophies" means one does not do this for external recognition. "No referees" means that you are responsible for what you do, even in the intensity of the experience. This is part of what is meant by the full statement of the Credo "The greater the dichotomy, the profounder the transformation-- Higher Consciousness through Harder Contact." Even as one goes into the abandon and agression of the fight, one also stays calm and aware and does not surrender responsibility for one's actions to another . The further one goes in these opposing directions at the same time, the more powerful the effect on one's awareness of something beyond words. So in my view my dentist is free to draw the lessons he wishes. For him the stick is a crappy weapon. He has his reasons. If they make us think, then that is great. Woof, Crafty Dog --__--__-- Message: 6 Subject: Re: [Eskrima] proof? To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 06:27:53 -0700 (PDT) From: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Ray, > > You have been at this game long enough to know that placement is bullshit. > All placement does is increase your odds of success. So which is it, Doc? Placement is BS or placement increases your odds? :) Placement is not BS, as it does greatly increase your odds of success. Putting placement and power together is better yet... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 7 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 09:50:23 +0000 From: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Kali in the movies Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hello Everyone, There's been some discussion on FMAs related sites and message boards about someday seeing a Kali related big budget Hollywood film. There is a film coming out in late 2002 or early 2003 that will contain the longest FMAs flavored knife engagement ever filmed (more on this further down). Many may have heard about the Paramount Pictures film titled The HUNTED starring Oscar winners Tommy Lee Jones and Benicio Del Toro. The film is directed by William Friedkin who brought us The Exorcist, French Connection and To Live and Die in LA. Early official descriptions of the film mentions a deep woods tracker seeking a serial killer who hunts deer hunters. Sayoc Kali Guros Tom Kier and I (Rafael Kayanan) were brought on board the project in Spring 2001 when Benicio Del Toro met Guro Tom while attending a Tracker school run by Tom Brown. BDT was impressed with the Sayoc Kali material Guro Kier showed him. So Guro Kier was off to Portland to become a Technical Advisor for the film. Benicio knew the script called for a knife fight in the end and his approach to film has always been to be innovative. As an actor he learns as much as possible about his character. Much to their credit, Tommy Lee Jones and the director Friedkin were also of the same mind. They did not want to make another knife fight that was typical of every Hollywood knife fight for the past sixty years. No big budget knife duel has ever been captured on film that would have the flavor of FMAs. The film Exposure was the closest but it didn't have the quality of production as this film and the knife fight Friedkin wanted was grittier, lengthier and atop an uncompromising locale - Steep jagged cliffs over a raging waterfall in the cold Oregon climate. I was asked to join the film because Guro Tom's experience (and many in FMAs will relate) was that training someone to handle a knife is best with a good training partner. The daunting task was not only to teach the stunt men, both lead actors, as well as be able to show a sequence with TWO experienced knife men; but do all the above in a small amount of time. Two instructors were needed to speed up the process. The director could 'see' the fight better this way (having never seen kali) and edit or ask for something before filming. Once I heard about the news that I was now an advisor, I asked Tuhon Chris Sayoc what he wanted to show to the general public. Luckily that coming weekend Tuhon Sayoc had brought me and my brother to do a demonstration for Guro Dan Inosanto, who offered some advice and anecdotes concerning the film business and the limits therein. Tuhon Sayoc then verbally gave me a list of tactical material he'd felt was okay to include in a film. In addition, Guro Tom showed the director that I was also a professional illustrator/storyboard artist as prior to coming to the location I drew up possible sequences in storyboard format. This led to me to officially storyboarding the knife scenes. Another individual who took an instant liking to us was the producer Jim Jacks (Tombstone) due to his collegiate wrestling and family's military background. With his encyclopedic knowledge of film, he recognized that the Sayoc material was essential in giving the film it's unique look. Upon seeing the mine of material to draw from, The HUNTED became a knife film almost overnight. Director William Friedkin asked Guro Kier and myself one thing, "Make it as real as possible for film and make it brutal". It was a challenge since he wanted a fight longer than eight seconds. One year has passed and our work on the film is done, there were hundreds of setups for the final fight scene, more than enough to edit together some exciting footage. The actors diligently trained for months, as did the world class stunt men involved. They might not want to see another training knife for a long time to come. The director of photography is Caleb Deschanel ( The Natural, The Right Stuff and The Patriot) and the small snips that I've seen in the dailies really made me respect the process and end product even more. One of the perks in working on a film is meeting some amazing talents, as a sidenote I even met one of the eskrima digest listers Crafty Dog as he was in from LA visiting Tuhon Sayoc during one of the training sessions with the film's stunt double. Although the HUNTED may not be specifically about Kali or written by Filipinos it is a sizeable step towards someday having an all Kali film. That is of course if the HUNTED does well at the box office. But that's your side of the story. Rafael Kayanan Sayoc Kali _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. --__--__-- Message: 8 Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Kali in the movies ?? To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 07:07:06 -0700 (PDT) From: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > ... > Sayoc Kali Guros Tom Kier and I (Rafael Kayanan) were brought on board the > project in Spring 2001 when Benicio Del Toro met Guro Tom while attending a > Tracker school run by Tom Brown. > ... > ... > > Rafael Kayanan > Sayoc Kali ??? Is this Mr. Kayanan or was this forwarded by Mr. Lefebvre? Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 11:52:11 -0500 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net From: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] A favor ... Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi all, would it be possible for everyone to start signing their posts. Or, better yet, Ray, is it possible to set the list server to provide the poster's name in the header info? The only ID on any of the posts is "eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net" ... so, if the poster doesn't sign it, then it's kind of hard to figure out who's saying what :-) Mike Casto sikal@yahoo.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of Eskrima Digest