Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 22:46:04 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 9 #287 - 6 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Inayan Eskrima / FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<-------- The Inayan/Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list -------->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). http://InayanEskrima.com/index.cfm See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Filipino word for "Sword"? and Kali (GatPuno@aol.com) 2. Inayan Germany (R.J. Marcaida) 3. Filipinos and generic terms (Jay de Leon) 4. DM seminar Sept 14-15 (Sidney525@aol.com) 5. Kali, Arnis and other Filipino Terms for FMA (Leo Salinel) 6. Re.: Doce pares (rudolf@kimbel.net) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 11:03:05 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Filipino word for "Sword"? and Kali Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Tuhon, Bill, Since you open this question, I would like to share a little info on my own research about the word sword in Tagalog and Kali term in PI. Since the beginning I doubt it the "Kali" is the term used in Philippine in regards of FMA. But almost FMA'rtist that want to be part of the carousel of "JKD" the booming business in the FMArts I mean "Free" rides, instant popular. No disrespect to anyone out there, is that the way I look at their strategies. If you used the term "Kali" you are the hip, the true arts. Most people I talk to atleast in Martial arts worlds, if they call it "Kali" it was mark the mother art, Arnis, Eskrima or even the Estokada most of them never heard is new version of it. I just want also to be noted that the "Majapahit Empire" is really not reach the Philippines, the Sri Vishaya is reach only the tip of the Philippines on the Mindanao region. The Philippine is first populated by "Negroid Pygmies" then the indonesian pygmies, then the lowlander Indonesians, hundreds years later the "Malay people" reach the Philippines from Borneo, caused of the political conflict between relative of Datu over the land in Borneo. So they were push away to find another land to settle, this time they found the Visayan Islands populated by the "Atis" or Aetas "negroid pygmies whom the Malay Datu bought the islands. The Ten Datu from borneo spread out to the Philippines, The other Datu settled in Luzon Islands. Hundreds years later, Philippines was doctrined by "Moslem" relegion from Mecca, Saudi Arabia. That why when the Spanish arrival they found community of Moslem we call it "Muslim" all over the Philippines. Guess what, this is our theory without the help of the "Traitor Visayan" that what we call it in Katagalogan (Tagalog speaking town), The Philippines would never be conquered by Spain. If they dont used the Visayan against other naighboring Trival groups, they massacres the tribes just to get the power. They would play friends then wait until the tribes is sleeping then they would attack all the warriors and slaves the womans and the childrens. They do this trival to tribal for the Spaniards satisfaction. Even today, the Tagalog is not really not trusted Visayan, and the Visayan is the same way talking about racist, see us. In term of "Kali" There are no traces that we used that name for our martial arts, becaused the FMA was no formal name till the the Arnis and Eskrima and Estokada was adapted name to our fighting arts during the Spanish occupation. Yes we do have martial art but not as organized curricullum like now. The Moro-moro play standardized the Arnis and Eskrima, later become the medium of teaching methodology in Filipino Martial Arts. Let me mention few Filipino words for fighting, Example: Babag, Buntalan, Laban, Gulpihan (Fighting), Dalbugan, Kamaohan, Suntukan (fistfight), Tadyakan, Sipaan, Sikaran (Kicking), Buno, Bunoan, Pagulongan(wretling or ground fighting), Hatawan, Hampasan, Yantukan (stickfighting), Tagaan, Itakan, Sundangan all meaning Bolo or "long blade fight). this the sample of the old term in Tagalog. Modern Tagalog Bakbakan(Rumble) Paloan (Stichfighting), Espadahan (swordfight). The Modern Tagalog was impluence by Spanish and English, sometime is Tagalog-Spanish (Tagspan) and Tagalog-English (Taglish). This is small info on my own research and I will take full responsibility to answer to anyone, whom might take this negative. I dont try convinced anyone I just try to share what I though about this topics. Thank you, Guamagalang/with respect Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Laguna Arnis FGederation International US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research Center USA There are no Tagalog words for "Swords" in our native language, in Tagalog the old term long blade is "Sundang", Golok and Itak, but in English they call this Bolo or in Spanish Machete. During the Spanish occupation Filipino adapted the words Espada, or Sable "Sword or Saber". Pinute might the call in Visaya, Golok,Sundang and Itak in Bicol, Ilocano, Pampangueno, and the neighboring Tagalog speaking provinces. > > > > Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to > eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net > > You can reach the person managing the list at > eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." > > > <<-------- The Inayan/Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list -------->> > > Serving the Internet since June 1994. > Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > > The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. > Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). > http://InayanEskrima.com/index.cfm > > See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine > for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com > > Mabuhay ang eskrima! > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Gaje on kali (bill m) > > -- __--__-- > > Message: 1 > From: "bill m" > To: > Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 11:51:11 -0700 > Subject: [Eskrima] Gaje on kali > Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > Ray asked: > > "Back on the more recent use of the term Kali. Anyone familiar with when > Leo Gaje began to use the term?" > > When I first started training with Leo early in 1975 he was using both > "Arnis" and "Kali" to describe the FMA's. > His organization was called "Arnis America Organization" (AAO) and he would > use the word Arnis at demonstrations to describe FMA as currently > practiced. > He would also give a speech at demos about the history of FMA's and say > that > the art was called "kali" before the arrival of the Spanish in the > Philippines. He said the art was named after the goddess of violence. > My best guess as to where he got this information was that when he was > traveling in Indonesia and Malaysia in the 1960's he met some Hindus who > told him about Kali. Kali is a Hindu goddess, so perhaps when learning the > history of the Majapahit empire (the Majapahit originated in India which is > predominantly Hindu) he was told that the worshipers of Kali brought > martial > arts with them. This is only a guess based on his speeches because when you > asked Leo directly about where he got his info he took it as questioning > his > authority on the subject and wouldn't give you a straight answer. > > The AAO broke up around '79 or '80 after an unfortunate incident with one > of > the senior board members caused Leo to disband the organization. In '82, > Leo, myself and a few other students moved to Texas. There Leo formed > NARAUSA (National Arnis Association of the USA) as the US version of > NARAPHIL. I moved back to New York late in '85. Around '87 or '88 Leo had > changed the organization again, this time calling it the USKA (U.S, Kali > Association). He used this name until moving back to the Philippines in > '91. > After Leo left the U.S. two other Filipino instructors began to use this > name for their organizations. > > I think Kim is correct when he wrote that Leo used the term kali in a > desire > to find a non-Spanish term for a Filipino martial art. Whether Leo just > traded one foreign term for another I have no way of knowing. Filipino list > members have commented that four hundred years of Spanish occupation seems > to have wiped out the memory of what the art was called before the Spanish > came. One can surmise that it did not have one single name used through out > the entire Philippines. Perhaps it was just called something like "sword > fighting" in each of the many languages that made up the Philippines at the > time. Can the Filipino list members give us some pre-Spanish words used > for > "sword" and "fighting"? This might not prove exactly what was used, but it > might give us a glimpse behind the curtain of time. > > Regards, > Tuhon Bill McGrath --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "R.J. Marcaida" To: Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 14:48:18 -0400 Subject: [Eskrima] Inayan Germany Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Greetings, A German friend of mine was interested in studying FMA. He stated that the only FMA he knew of in Hamburg ,Germany is headed by Jeff Espinous and John Ward. He stated that they are from the Inayan system FMA. They are also affiliated with the IKAEF. Being that I know nothing about these gentlemen, I would appreciate it if you guys could give me any info on them. Sincerely, Rj Marcaida --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Jay de Leon" To: Cc: "Jay de Leon" Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 04:53:46 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] Filipinos and generic terms Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Erwin Legaspi made a good point about the Filipinos's fondness of using generic terms, or more technically, a specfic name for a generic item. I am Tagalog, I grew up in Manila, and here are similar observations, which were true at least during the period of time I lived in the Philippines: (1) "Karate" was generic for all martial arts. If you were a martial artist, you were a "karatista" (karateka) regardless of what art you practiced, sometimes including Filipino martial arts. (2) I have mentioned this before in a previous post, in my conversations with martial artists in Luzon, and, on a limited basis, in Cebu and Iloilo (Visayas) and even Mindanao, everybody used the term "arnis" for Filipino martial arts. You would draw blank looks if you asked anybody if he practiced "eskrima" or "kali." I wish I was more scholarly then when I was outside of Manila, and asked what local term, if any, they used for Filipino martial arts. (3) We used to have several bolos in the house, usually for utility and yardwork, of different sizes and designs. We used the terms bolo, itak, barang and gulok interchangeably. It was only after coming to the U.S. and reading about them in magazines and seeing pictures in catalogs like "Kris Cutlery" did I find out that some of these terms had Indonesian/Malaysian origins or counterparts and referred to blades with specific designs. By the way, on a non-martial arts note, the generic term for refrigerator was "Frigidaire" (Prigideyr?) regardless of what brand your refrigerator was. Jay de Leon --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Sidney525@aol.com Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 18:23:20 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] DM seminar Sept 14-15 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net The Defensor Method of Filipino-Indonesian martial arts is having its annual retreat in Highland Park, IL (just north of Chicago). The cost is $100. Serrada, pekiti-tirsia, Villabrille system, and several styles of silat/kuntao will be featured. For more information, check the website @ www.kalieskrima.com or e-mail Sidney525@aol.com --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 21:08:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Leo Salinel To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Kali, Arnis and other Filipino Terms for FMA Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net As a Filipino residing all his life in the Philippines, in Metro Manila, this is what I have to say: 1. First of all, I must admit admiration for Tuhon Bill McGrath's very objective and scientific approach towards things. Unlike other FMA'ers who swallow ridiculous stories about "caves of doom" and hermits who live in caves with a shark-infested lagoon (on top of a mountain in Cebu??), he has a way of bringing out things which to me as a Pinoy who understands a great deal about Filipino culture and history sound very accurate or at least close to it. 2. The generic word for FMA all throughout the Philippines is ARNIS. Thus when people ask me what I do, I always tell them I do "arnis". Arnis is the term used all throughout the country, even in GT Gaje's native Negros Occidental where the ethnic group is Ilonggo or Hiligaynon. All the FMA styles there are called arnis, e.g., Pekiti Tirsia arnis, Tapado arnis, Yaming Arnis, Lightning Scientific arnis, Binas Dynamic or Lapu-lapu arnis, etc. In provinces where the ethnic group is Cebuano however, they prefer to use the word "escrima". Hence in northern Mindanao and central and eastern Visayas, the generic word used is "escrima" or "eskrima" (theyr'e the same thing). 3. However, here in Metro Manila, to appeal to the sense of the mysteriuos and esoteric among my fellow young urbanized Filipinos, whenever I invite people to train in FMA I always use the term "kali/escrima" and only add the modifier "arnis" to clarify what the first two words mean, to those who don't know what they are. 60% of kids here in Metro Manila don't even know what kali or arnis is! The 40% that do, associate it with clickety clack Filipino copycat version of European fencing done with bamboo sticks. Hence I always use the words "kali/escrima" first. 4. Nowhere in the Philippines is the word KALI used. To this day I am baffled where Master Placido Yambao (the guy who wrote the first book on FMA in 1957) got the term. I'm also baffled where GM Villabrille got the term. There's a local festival in the central hinterlands of Negros Occidental called Kali-kalihan which is said to feature arnis/kali, but I'm not sure if the festival is authentic or if it was just recently invented to draw in tourists (there are too many non-authentic festivals here in my country, unfortunately). 5. There are different words for sword or blade. The old Tagalog word for sword is "kalis" but people prefer to use the Spanish word "espada" to refer to sword. The word "bolo" refers to utility blades or machetes. Just like rice, we Filipinos have many terms for different kinds of blades. For bolos used in fighting, we have "ginunting", "pinuti", etc. For utility blades/machetes we have terms like "itak", "gulok" "espading" (sugar cane knife), etc. The Visayans have a rich bladed weapon vocabulary compared to us Tagalogs and other ethnic groups here in the country, although I'd say the Mindanao Muslim groups have even more terms (since they have preserved what we Christianized Flips have long lost, e.g., the kampilan, kalis/kris, sundang, barong, etc.). ===== Earn $$ just by receiving and reading email! http://www.resource-a-day.net/member/index.cgi?Brandon96 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: rudolf@kimbel.net To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 12:38:01 +0200 Subject: [Eskrima] Re.: Doce pares Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net "Tom Meadows" wrote: >Greetings , >For quite a few years now Doce Pares has been divided into two groups those >of GM Cacoy and those of Diony Canete ( The lack of a title here is not >disrespectful, it is simply Diony's personal wish to not be addresssed by a >title). >This is all quite public and they each have a different technical curriculum >to pursue. Each has formed their own organizations and tournament groups for >the promotion of their chosen area of technical expertise and education. >Any other differences are a family matter and should be respected as such. >I contacted Ewe Schwarz and he clarified that his letter on his website is >a statement of his training in GM Cacoy's method. If you read it in that >context it becomes a simple statement of association, and nothing more. He >has a very nice website which explains his organizations and their intent, >and can be easily contacted directly. >I can see how this might have been confusing to someone new to Doce Pares, >but I also felt that forwarding a portion of someone's website out of >context could create problems within the two groups. >Hope this helps, Sorry, Tom, it isn't that easy. I had a talk with Uwe and I'll try to sort it out. Uwe Schwarz was taught eskrima and certified to teach eskrima by Cacoy Canete. His first stay with Cacoy was 6 months in Cebu City 1991. Frans Stoeven was taught eskrima by Percibal Pableo who again is certified by D. Canete. Stroeven learned eskrima in the late 1990's. Dionisio Canetes Father (Cacoy's brother) was the president of Doce Pares Club in Cebu City until he died 1988, so Dionisio believes to have inherited that position. But Cacoy Canete, fought most of the real fights representing the Doce Pares Club in Cebu City after WWII up to 1983, earning respect for the club. Dionisio never fought for real. So Cacoy has that position in the eyes of many. That's also the politics often mentioned. Frans Stoeven has a web page (www.eskrima.nl) with a German branch. The english branch is different, with a phony Address and non German phone number(Germany is 49, not 31) for a German representative. On his German branch (this one with an existing representative), Stroeven writes :"Einige Leute geben sich unberechtigt als Doce Pares Leherer aus" which means "Some people are pretending to be Doce pares teachers without being legitimized". He also writes: "Nur Schulen, die in den Niederlanden bei der SEKAN und in Deutschland bei Doce Pares Europa, der Organisation von Frans Stroeven, angeschlossen sind, lehren das echte Doce Pares." which means "Only schools attached to Frans Stroeven's organization teach genuine Doce Pares." Now Frans Stroven under Percibal Pableo under Dionisio Canete wants to tell us that he does not recognize Eskrima taught by Cacoy Canete as genuine and that Cacoy's certificates are not legitimate. Mr. Schwarz does not take this insult of his teacher lightly. He therefore issued his statement. BTW, Mr. Schwarz also contacted Percibal, asking what right he has for these claims. Percibal sent some e-mails not suitable for publishing on the net, and Mr. Schwarz forwarded me this as the latest example: >Thema: Your NOTHING....? >Datum: 17.08.02 11:03:43 (MEZ) - Mitteleurop. Sommerzeit >From: valpableo@hotmail.com (val pableo) >To: DPEBerlin@aol.com >i thought talking with a man....and i'm welling to talk to you...but now >i >know who you are...all my friends in germany telling me that you are a >...GAY..? ohh my goodness... >now i wonder why....so srry i won't talk to you nor replying your >e-mail..digusting..ha.ha.ha. >fuck...off...? I guess this makes Mr. Schwarz's urge to distance himself from these people understandable. Rudolf. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of Eskrima Digest