Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 02:05:04 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 9 #289 - 3 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Inayan Eskrima / FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<-------- The Inayan/Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list -------->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). http://InayanEskrima.com/index.cfm See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Straight Thrust Kali Group (william schultz) 2. Tagalos Weapons of FMA just a few (GatPuno@aol.com) 3. Inayan Germany (rudolf@kimbel.net) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: 20 Aug 2002 10:35:14 -0700 From: "william schultz" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Straight Thrust Kali Group Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Greetings folks. There is an excellent thread going on over on the Dog Brothers forum about European blade arts Vs Kali. In adding to the conversation about what our group has been up to, we decided to go ahead and formally announce the formation of the Straight Thrust Kali group. I've posted my threads which lead up to it. I'll put it out here and invite your questions, comments and flames. And, if anyone is ever in Portland or Southern New England, and wants to play, we invite you to drop us a line. The Welcome mat is always out. Sincerely, William Schultz Straight Thrust Kali Side Note: IMHO, from a historical/cultural stand point, I can understand the questioning about the term "Kali". From a combat stand point, I don't care if it was called soggy milk toast martial arts. If it's effective and proven, I'm all over it. But of course, I am looking at it from an American perspective (for good or Ill). ****************************************** Greetings, The Straight Thrust Kali Group up here in Portland O.R. headed by Guro John Daniels have been researching and comparing Western bladed arts to the FMA for over a year now. We have mainly been using heavier practice Sabers/Rapiers and daggers (Espada Y Daga, Daga Y Daga)) with fencing masks, street hockey gloves and occasionally forearm guards. Just wearing regular work out clothes, you'll now real fast if you've taken a hit. You can end up with some nasty welts and bruises. The blades are heavier and a lot less flexible then your standard (whippy) Epee blades. It's not fencing in the classical sense, not at all. FMA footwork and striking techniques combined with what we have researched about Western blade techniques. It's still more FMA in flavor (because of our backgrounds) but with added WMA offensive, counter-offense, and evasive techniques. It has definitely changed the way we apply our bladed techniques. If you play it realistically and consider the lethality of the hits, it really advances your blade awareness (which translates to baton as well) and evasive & offensive reflexes (by light years). I was a little skeptical until I tried it. As Matinik said, I was also very interested to learn of how extensive the WMA bladed arts were (but I'm still FMA at heart). BTW, I tried approaching some of the HACA folks who were listed in my area to do some sparring but got no takers. If anyone here is ever up in the Portland area and wants to play a bit, please drop us a line. Also, I'll be moving to New England soon and if there is any one out that way who wants to spar/train, please drop me a line. William Straight Thrust Kali wshpunyo@spiritone.com *********************************************** Rafael wrote: >>William, I'm disappointed I didn't find out about your group while we were up in Portland doing the technical advising on a film last year and the beginning of this year. It would've been great to visit your group. Your description of your training sounds great.>> Rafael, we would have loved to have gotten together with you. If you are ever up in Portland again, or in the southern Mass/Rhode Island area, please drop us a line. The welcome mat is always out. We seem to be having a bit of a difficult time getting people to play. The fencing folks aren't sure what we're doing because we don't stay on the straight forward attack & retreat linear lines and we allow any targets. The HACA folks don't seem interested in comparing/testing styles. Some of the other FMA folks seem a little skeptical until they try it. After their legs are taken out, or they take a thrust to the face/neck, or they get their weapon hand/arm lopped off (figuratively speaking of course), the mask comes off and their eyes look like saucers. Either the adrenaline is pumping and they want more, or they leave and don't come back. We actually had a former Green Beret come play a while back who took a Saber/Rapier hit across the face, took his gear off and said he didn't want anything to do with it. But he came back a week later and has been playing ever since. He considered the hit seriously and realized that would have probably been it for him if it were for real. And that's the whole point of doing this. In FMA, the stick is supposed to represent the blade. But sparring this way, with blades, you realize real fast that the sticks are slower and less maneuverable then the blades. Don't get me wrong here, I love to stick fight, but it just doesn't develop the speed, offensive, and counter-offensive reflexes and blade awareness like sparring in this manner does. Also, you find out real fast the importance of thrusting. Guro Crafty can correct me if I'm wrong here, but I don't believe that they allow thrusting in the gatherings, and if they do, you don't see it happen a whole lot. Slashing/caveman type movements are a whole lot harder to pull off when you have an opponent who is using thrusting techniques (with a blade). It not impossible, but your footwork and angling have to be right on, and again, that's the whole point of doing it. These attributes develop a lot faster training in this manner. If you play it this way, and realistically (and you'll know if you've been hit) consider the hits and what they would have done to the body (arm/hand lopped off, thrust to the face, to the biceps, the midsection, groin, or hamstringed....) you come away with a whole new view and appreciation for the effectiveness of the FMA/WMA bladed arts. Again, if anyone wishes to train or spar with us please drop us a line. William Schultz Straight Thrust Kali Mongrel Combative Arts Club wshpunyo@spiritone.com ************************************************* Greetings. Matinik (and an increasing number of private inquires) asked if I could give a description of the Straight Thrust Kali group. On short order here it is. This has been in the planning and R&D stage for a while, but we are ready to announce the formation of the Straight Thrust Kali group. The founding members are Guro John Daniels, Guro Preston Boyd, and myself, Guro William Schultz. The bonding thread between us is the Filipino Martial Arts which as Guro Boyd has stated; "is our "rosetta stone" to guide us in understanding and applying archaic techniques found in various WMA historic bladed combat manuals. We do this not from the POV of historical/cultural reconstruction but rather in an effort to reclaim effective methods and techniques of combat which otherwise would be lost or even ignored as nothing more than historical curiosity." The goal is not the accumulation of techniques, but rather to understand the core principles of different methods of combat and test them in real time (as real as possible) from our FMA perspective. If a given principle or technique is proven to be effective (if we can work it consistently against an un-cooperative opponents) , we will thread them into our teaching. With that being said, there is no set curriculum written is stone. Each one of us has different backgrounds, strengths and methods that work for us individually. If you were to watch each one of us "play", you would certainly see the FMA strongly present in our movements. But you would also see a flavoring of Kendo come out at times with Guro Daniels, a more classical looking fencing approach from Guro Boyd, and a decidedly Krabi-Krabong flavoring from myself. Rather the Straight Thrust Kali group is the umbrella organization that we work under. Each one of us may have a different emphasis and curriculum with our individual students, but the goal is to teach effective combat/self defense techniques and principles that follow universal concepts of offensive and counter-offensive combat. Concepts and principles that we are able to effectively and consistently utilize against attacking/resisting opponents. Backgrounds: Guro John Daniels. He began his FMA training back in the early eighties under Guro Leonard Trigg. *Kendo under Al Mar *2nd Dan Karate/Kendo-Master Martinez *Certified Instructor (Guro) under Guro Dan Inosanto *7th Degree Black Belt under GM Roberto Presas *3rd Degree Black Belt under GM Ciriaco "Cacoy" Canete. *Apprentice Instructor under Guro Ted LucayLucay *Tagapagturo (Instructor) under Guro Leonard Trigg *Phase 1 Instructor under Ajarn Chai Sirisute *Graduate (Instructor) in Laoation Kickboxing under Ajarn Samsak Boupha *Phase 1 Instructor under Paul Vunak & Tom Cruise *Blue Belt under Fabio Santos (BJJ) *2nd Dan in Hopkido Guro Preston Boyd He began training in FMA in (around) 1987. JKD/Kali/Mauy Thai under Cliff Lenderman JKDC/Kali/Mauy Thai under Guro John Daniels Epee and Saber Fencing in the Military 1993-97 Guro William Schultz Began FMA training in (around) 1990-91 *Kickboxing/Brawling under various instructors 83-89 *Doce Pares/Tobosa Kali-Eskrima under Sifu Al Dacascos *Hinigaran Modern Arnis under Guro Kurtis Goodwin *Arnis De Mano, Daga Say Daga, Lacoste/Inosanto Kali, JKDC, Muay-Lao Thai Boxing under Guro John Daniels. *Krabi-Krabong, Surisute Muay Thai under Ajarn Steve Wilson. *Pekiti-Tirsia Kali under Mataas na Guro Tim Waid We came together about five years ago and have been training on a weekly basis ever since. A little over a year ago, Guro Boyd brought some fencing gear with him and convinced us to "play" a bit. The increased tempo and speed, as well as being able to track the blade were quite difficult at first. Also, it was immediately apparent where you took a hit because of the welts that were raised. We realized very quickly the effect that training in this manner had in developing our speed, offensive, and counter-offensive reflexes, footwork and blade awareness. These attributes are developed at a much faster rate then what we had experienced before. We immediately went to the heavier and less flexible practice Saber/Rapiers and daggers. We started training Espada Y Daga, but quickly branched into single sword, double sword, Daga, and double Daga. More recently we have been experimenting with sword and shield. We will also match up different pairs of weapons against each other to test effectiveness and our abilities. We also started researching what we could on Western/European bladed arts and begun to test principles and techniques that we found in WMA manuals. We found that we could effectively work alot of the WMA techniques from our FMA base. Through our consistent training we also re-discovered the importance and effectiveness of thrusting techniques. Yes, thrusting techniques are in the FMA. but very much underutilized today (as Crafty has stated). Slashing/caveman type movements are more natural movements where as thrusting is more of a learned technique. Once the ability to thrust effectively has been acquired, slashing movements are harder to pull off consistently ( if you play it realistically). Especially if your playing Espada Y Daga where the incoming slash can be jammed/deflected with the Daga and a thrust delivered simultaneously. With developed timing, thrusting behind the slashes can also be quite effective. The thrust is quicker and has less distance to travel to the target. It also cuts down on the willingness of an opponent to try and crash in (if they spar looking at this from a realistic stand point of using bladed weapons). Now, with that being said, in order to counter effective thrusting techniques, you have to develop your footwork, angling, and timing (and parrying and deflecting techniques) to effectively counter with slashing movements. Basically, in sparring in this manner, developing effective offensive and counter-offensive thrusting techniques, timing and footwork force you (and you opponent) to improve your offensive and counter-offensive slashing techniques, timing and footwork. Which in order to counter, will force you to further improve your thrusting abilities, which in turn will force you to improve your slashing....on so on. This is why we feel that training in this way improves your development at an accelerated rate. Our speed, offensive, and counter-offensive reflexes , footwork and blade awareness were markedly improved in a short period of time. And it immediately transfers over to knife, stick work and open hand as well. As I stated before, If you play it this way, and realistically (and you'll know if you've been hit, also see side note below) consider the hits and what they would have done to the body (arm/hand lopped off, thrust to the face, to the biceps, the midsection, groin, or hamstringed....) you come away with a whole new view of, and appreciation for the effectiveness of the FMA/WMA bladed arts. If anyone is interested in training or getting together to spar, please drop us a line. Your always welcome. BTW, we are in the process of video tapeing so we hope to have visuals available at a later date. Side Note: (I believe we have this one on video. It's from earlier in our study) We had an SCA guy come and play with us one day. A very aggressive fighter who liked to crash in. Really more in the manner of "running amok". Once, when he was able to parry one of my strikes, he crashed in and I did my impression of a Singer Sewing machine with my dagger to his midsection. Realistically, we probably both would have died, him being disemboweled, me possibly bleeding to death (I deflected his sword which became pinned flat between us and I had jammed his dagger hand). If he wanted to commit suicide by running amok. he was successful. But most people want to live to battle another day. And trying to get into a standing grapple is not very smart if I have a dagger waiting for you when you get in. He was used to wearing heavy leather armor and exchangeing blows. We train to hit without being hit. And we know real quickly if we are, instant feedback. I look at this the same way the DB's look at wearing heavy armor and how it causes some people to take shots to get in. Use as little armor as possible. You will get bruised. You will get welts. But those represent where you took a thrust, or a slash. That is your feedback and your warning to change your tactics and improve your game. Hope to hear from, or see some of you in the future. William Schultz wshpunyo@spiritone.com Preston Boyd gwynwynen@worldnet.att.net Straight Thrust Kali Group --__--__-- Message: 2 From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 13:46:41 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Tagalos Weapons of FMA just a few Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net This is a good points, for someone live and raised from the City or the upper class citizeen of the Philippines. > > 5. There are different words for sword or blade. The > old Tagalog word for sword is "kalis" but people > prefer to use the Spanish word "espada" to refer to > sword. The word "bolo" refers to utility blades or > machetes. Just like rice, we Filipinos have many terms > for different kinds of blades. For bolos used in > fighting, we have "ginunting", "pinuti", etc. For > utility blades/machetes we have terms like "itak", > "gulok" "espading" (sugar cane knife), etc. The > Visayans have a rich bladed weapon vocabulary compared > to us Tagalogs and other ethnic groups here in the > country, although I'd say the Mindanao Muslim groups > have even more terms (since they have preserved what > we Christianized Flips have long lost, e.g., the > kampilan, kalis/kris, sundang, barong, etc.). > But if were born and raised in the farm or the mountain side, ricefields family you will know what the other name of the blade that you might used for different job discription. Like a Proffesional workers: To built a building yo need an Architech, to designed the art works and make some blue print of that building, Engineer to read and guide the Mason, then mason to show the line worker how the project is going to buil together. Filipino farmer will tell you what kind of blade used to each job, start from the Panabas or sometimes is known as Halabas a long bladed bolo which used to cut cover craft aand various grass to prime clean the area of your seedlings that you want to planted. Then the Karit or Kalawit or sickle to cut the seedling root and top leaves before you plants the seedlings. The there a varios bolo to waer for just for general tools for panabas to Karit to just to open or cutting something that what we called "Panakbat", this is the common weapon we have as Panakbat ( wear in our waist. For Tagalog Bolo example: Binakuko, Sinampalok, Dahon Buho, Dahon Palay, Sinungot Ulang, Pamalaypay, Halabas, Tabak(Andres Bonifacio;s bolo), Dinidi, Dulos, etc. this is just name of few bolo in Katagalugan. Each Town and provinces has it own designed of each blades. So if we really going to follow the name of each provinces there will be has to keep on tract which and which is the weapon for Arnisdor or Eskrimador. I will add more later, just for now, Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Laguna Arnis Federation International --__--__-- Message: 3 From: rudolf@kimbel.net To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 20:01:21 +0200 Subject: [Eskrima] Inayan Germany Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net "R.J. Marcaida" wrote: >Greetings, > A German friend of mine was interested in studying FMA. He stated that >the only FMA he knew of in Hamburg ,Germany is headed by Jeff Espinous and >John Ward. He stated that they are from the Inayan system FMA. They are also >affiliated with the IKAEF. Being that I know nothing about these gentlemen, >I would appreciate it if you guys could give me any info on them. I'm not from Hamburg, so I can only give unspecific advice. As this is the Inayan list, you should get more solid advice. For an overview of eskrima in Hamburg, go to yahoo.de and search : eskrima hamburg. I would advise your friend to look around a bit. He'll be more assured about his choice the more he saw. Beware of schools that require you to take private lessons for 'advanced techniques', or too many students are taking private (=expensive) lessons. Rudolf. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of Eskrima Digest