Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 03:02:04 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 9 #317 - 4 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Inayan Eskrima / FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<-------- The Inayan/Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list -------->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). http://InayanEskrima.com/index.cfm See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. 20 hours and sundry (David Eke) 2. Arnis History c/o Dr. Ned Nepangue (Leo Salinel) 3. Re:Origens (Bladewerks@aol.com) 4. The "Chicken or the egg" debate continues... (Mark Harrell) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "David Eke" To: Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 15:38:43 +1000 Subject: [Eskrima] 20 hours and sundry Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >I also want to offer something with sticks or sword. I got a offer to >become a Eskrima teacher. must pay about 500 Euro and I get 20 hours >lesson, my equipment, and a certificate that allows to be a Eskrima teacher >and have my own school. Back in the late 80's early 90's some very (very) well known instructors were offering 1st Dan black belts (with nice certificates too) for around $1000 - 1500 US for about three to four weeks training in The Philippines. Good chance there would be people on this list that got (some) certification that way. >I only caught about the last minute of this demo when I saw Guros Eric and >Luis paint each other ferociously with their unpadded sticks. I thought I >was watching a Dog Brothers expo for a second. Sounds like standard (Velez) Balintawak "play" or "Give and Take". Players attack, counter attack and defend at random. Balintawak players don't use any protection but the instructor is always controlling the students stick (although it sometimes doesn't look like it). The instructor also uses semi hitting (hitting the student hard enough to hurt but not to damage) when gaps open up in the students defence to teach him a lesson. If two instructors are playing it's both instructors semi hitting trying to get inside the others defence. >For what I could see it appeared that Guro Irwin Carmichael was running the >demo and Grandmaster Taboada spoke briefly. I met Bobby T when he was just a Master in Oz before he went to the US. Can anyone on the list tell when and how he acquired his GM status. As he was a senior student of Toevel is he a GM in Velez Balintawak or has he created his own system? --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 03:31:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Leo Salinel To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Arnis History c/o Dr. Ned Nepangue Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net The essays on arnis history are well-researched and well-done. They bring a more objective look into the FMA. Although by now it should be deemed established that there's no such thing as a mother art of FMA called "Kali", it should nevertheless be believed that there DID exist a bedrock or core of pre-Spanish or pre-colonial techniques that gave rise to the FMA and is in itself FMA, although it was definitely not called "Kali". In all likelihood, the bedrock of pre-Spanish techniques had variant names depending on the ethnic group or region you were in (Tagalog, Bicolano, Ilocano, etc.). It would be foolhardy to assume that ALL FMA techniques came as a result of the Spanish colonization and the Moro wars and constant defensive games against Moro pirates. That extreme assumption, i.e., the notion that all FMA was developed ONLY during the spanish times must be avoided and in my honest opinion could be an extreme interpretation of Dr. Nepangue's and Tinni's articles. I mean, I've seen on TV a war dance in southern Panay by semi-Christian, semi-tribal ethnic groups who did footwork that looked like Silat crossed with Pekiti Tirsia and who twirled their blades ala abaniko--imagine a guy wielding a native pre-Spanish shield and a barong-lookalike sword and twirling the latter in the manner of a baston/olisi! Does that look like Spanish influence to you? Filipinos have a knack of importing foreign terms for local concepts. Take the words "espada y daga" for example. They're Spanish and to some extent a lot of the maneuvers and techniques of EyD did come from the Spaniards, but there exists a bedrock of FMA espada y daga techniques that look very indigenous. I saw this anthropological report from Ateneo de Manila University (the PHilippines' version of Yale University) done by a top anthropologist who did research on the southern Panay hilltribes. From the war dance descriptions and a picture I saw, the old man shaman-warrior was wielding a long knife and a longer sword in tandem. So much for EyD being PURELY a Spanish influence. Take the terms "Combat Judo". For all we know they could be indeed combative takes of Judo adapted by our oldtimer GMs. On the other hand, I would think they just appropriated the term to be fashionable, although in so doing they just gave a new name to old tricks/techniques which used to be called just plain "pangamut" or "dumog" or whatever they called it. ===== Earn $$ just by receiving and reading email! http://www.resource-a-day.net/member/index.cgi?Brandon96 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Bladewerks@aol.com Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 09:15:43 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re:Origens Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I think this thread on Origens has been one of the best this year.I have to say I have been compelled to save at last 2 or 3 intallments as referance for further study later. Some very interesting reading.With a lot of thought provoking information. Barry Meadows Sweat More-Bleed Less --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Mark Harrell" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 08 Sep 2002 20:21:55 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] The "Chicken or the egg" debate continues... Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net The "Chicken or the egg" debate continues... This Kali doesn't exist or never existed debate just never seems gets old here... Congratulations a well written although a bit angry towards Kali essay on the "New Theories on the Origins of Eskrima". Everytime this heated debate comes up it reminds me of the never ending "Who came first: The chicken or the egg" debate. I still do not understand why so many people spend so much energy in this Kali, Eskrima, Arnis debate... All three exist and all three have something of value to offer anyone searching for effective components to contribute to their personal combative truth. My observation in the USA has been that there are numerous FMA Masters and or Guros who have changed the name of their system or style to suit the market place and the winds of their fancy. I think this is partly due to confusion over terms and sometimes just for the almighty $$$ This is especially true in the USA. PROBLEM: You cannot find any majority of Filipino's whether from the Philippines or the USA to agree on terminology. The debate will never be resolved period! Let's face it, much if not all of the stories, legends, myths, and true origins of many FMA have been revised and embellished upon over the years to suit the needs of the history revisionists. In fact, that process obviously continues to this day in all fields of endeavor. It seems to be a natural human tendency to write history from the writer’s point of view... and therefore excluding and / or insulting all those who disagree. This type of debate will never be solved no matter how much research anyone does or how many credits you put in your bibliography. The vast majority of people are just never going to agree on what "was" or "is" with regards to FMA. I have never taken as "FACT" anything that anyone has told me or perhaps written with regards to many things in life and this is especially true with regards to martial arts. I choose to make up my own mind based upon my personal experience and own research. Question: Why do the Filipino's name their "native" pre-Hispanic period martial arts after the modified Spanish terms: Esgrima or Escrima and Arnes De Mano or Arnis??? Question: How did the pre-Hispanic FMA names get lost to time??? With regards to the references directed to the late Mr. Villabrille... He was a very good martial arts fighter from his time and he studied many methods and styles including but not limited to: Escrima, Arnis, Silat, Kuntao, and yes... Kali etc... He developed his own method which he called, Kali. Go to this link to read an article that interviews his top student Mr. Ben Largusa: http://www.pentjaksilatusa.com/ and look for the link to: "GrandMaster Ben Largusa- A simple man of KALI". Don't believe everything you read in this article... Mr. Largusa in some cases has definately embellished or at least continued to pass on the legends and myths of his Kali and in other cases he is just telling you what he was taught or told... Peace be with you, Mark Harrell _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of Eskrima Digest