Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 16:38:04 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 9 #377 - 7 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Inayan Eskrima / FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<-------- The Inayan/Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list -------->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). http://InayanEskrima.com/index.cfm See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re- Modern Arnis (rocky pasiwk) 2. Terms: pananajakman, kino mutai, panantukan --- huh? (Deveyra, Tito A.) 3. Vol 9 #376 kenjo's comments re: mine ;) (Bart Hubbard) 4. Re: stick density (Kes41355@aol.com) 5. Re: multiple hits (Kes41355@aol.com) 6. Re: FMA's of only injuring to a degree, PK knife article (Mark F. Ward) 7. forms (Tye Botting) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "rocky pasiwk" To: Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 16:13:06 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] Re- Modern Arnis Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Thanks for the plug Ray ( by the way may mail is working again ) As far as Remy's old student in U.S . well I am defiantly on the list , but Master Robert Demott was teaching back in I believe 1976, and then of course Dean Stockwell, of course he never taught anyone, and never really reached a high level of proficiency. But there are a handful very small handful before me. I remember a guy named Bruce ( can't remember last name) Mike, something from California, Rick Mitchell from California ( probablly one of the very first ) Rocky --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 13:34:49 -0800 From: "Deveyra, Tito A." To: Subject: [Eskrima] Terms: pananajakman, kino mutai, panantukan --- huh? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I don't know who coined these words. But in the Philippines they never existed as an art or system. "Tadyak" is a kick. If ever there was a word for such an art it should be "pananadyakan". In fact, there is no "j" in the Pilipino alphabet! Some acceptable conjugations of tadyak are tumadyak, tinadyak, tatadyakan (or tatadyakin) , tumatadyak, tinatadyak. Similarly, the word "suntok" (to punch) should be panununtukan (boxing), not panatukan (panatukan or pinatukan in bisaya is a sweet fried rice dessert!). Thus, one can (properly) say "nagsusuntukan at nagtatadyakan sila doon sa likod ng bahay." As for "kino mutai".... huh? Say what? Is this just something someone invented? Is there really a system or secret to this? I am assuming this is from the root "kamut" or "kamot" (i.e. hand or scratch). Kinamot or kinamut can also be used. You never use the word "kinamutay" since this usually refers to someone "bayut"/"bayot"/"binayot" would do. Bayot meaning, meaning a girlie, effeminate, feminine, cowardly person -- faggy. A very derogatory term. Thus, kinamutay is a girlie type fighting method. You will get beat up in the visayas if you described someone as fighting using "kinamutay" (or kino mutai). Tito de Veyra ---------------------------------------- In fact, pananajakman is a misspelling of the recently coined word "pananadyakan" which means "kicking". It's just like "kino mutai", which is also a misspelling of "kinamutay", which is ALSO NOT a style or subsystem. It looks like that as the FMA were being transplanted from Pinoy culture into American culture, the latter couldn't help but follow the Japanese-Chinese MA paradigm of having names for all techniques and so they hard-pressed their oldtimer teachers for "names" for what they were doing....never mind the fact that their teachers themselves did not have terms for most of what they were doing, especially the empty handed striking, trapping, and kicking techniques, other than the generic word 'trangkada' or 'sikad' or 'sipa'. In fact, IMO that's precisely what Bruce Lee must have liked about the FMA....their total lack of concern for terms and stuff and sheer emphasis on what works. --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 16:25:49 -0500 From: "Bart Hubbard" To: Subject: [Eskrima] Vol 9 #376 kenjo's comments re: mine ;) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net believe it or not, there is a school of thought which advocates that "once a balisong is opened, somebody is bound to die" (just like when somebody draws a gun, there is a big possibility that the intent of the person drawing that gun is to kill) that is why i am currently studying the "calibrated response" strategy.. I am aware that there are disciplines that say exactly what you’re talking about and they don’t restrict themselves to the balisong. But I have to say that I think it’s unwise and unrealistic. Mostly when guns or weapons are drawn it’s to stop people from doing something, like what happens when the police draw a gun on you, or when you pull a gun on a burglar and tell them to stop robbing you. They’re prepared to kill you, but that’s not the primary goal. The primary goal is cessation of immediate action. By this "calibrated response" what exactly do you mean? Are you talking about always going for the vital strikes or conditioning yourself to only resort to a single goal of permanently disabling breathing in your opponent? Muscle memory and conditioning is fine to a point, but when you program yourself to respond the same way in every situation, you remove the "aliveness" and adaptability from your art and you become predictable. Is that what you’re talking about? ..you are right, most balisong-wielding people don't have any knife training, that's why almost always, in balisong related incidents somebody dies because the intent there is to kill.. ..however i have to disagree that a mere brandish of a balisong can end a problem, in fact this action might even antagonize an opponent…once you brandish a balisong, things go to another level.. Thanks for the concession on most "balisong-wielding" people having no knife training, but I would like to see some stats reflecting the majority of "balisong-opening incidents" ending in death. I’ve been in a few balisong opening incidents where nobody died or was cut. In a couple I was the opener and in the greater number I was being "opened at." I agree a brandish can sometimes escalate the situation. But I think in most cases it will actually stop it. Police and gangsters brandish weapons a lot and that stops whatever’s happening in most cases. If in my own life there was a death for every weapon brandish I’ve been involved in or witnessed, I think that would be a couple hundred people dead. The actual number not anywhere near that. ..and to answer your questions - if during a fight an opponent backs down and you have the opportunity to do so, you "finish the job" (however which way you want to finish it, to kill or to maim or to kiss and make up, whatever, that's your problem), because once that opponent recovers, he will come after you again.. if you don't have the opportunity to "finish the job", then run and always put your guard up everyday because somebody is out there looking for the chance to even things up.. It’s good to know your philosophy includes "kissing and making up" as an option. As martial artists I think it’s important that we advocate peace. We have to live in society and as social participants we have to abide by certain behaviors. It’s the same reason why we don’t torch the ghetto because some ghetto people perpetrate crimes. It would be an overreaction. If a situation gets to life or death, then society allows us to take life. But that should not be the first option and unless you want to spend the rest of your "post-fight" life fending off prison sex, it’s a good idea to train yourself to be "adaptable." Now as for the opponent recovering and coming after you again, I think it happens, but I don’t think that it happens most often. I used to work in a night club throwing people out and almost every one of the people thrown out threatened to come back. Most did not, and those that did mostly came back with their lawyers or parents. students don't want to be involved in a fight because they know the consequences of what's going to happen (hospital o sementeryo lang ang pwedeng mangyari pag napa-away kami) - we are if nothing else "practical" - that's why we don't open or show our balisongs except when we are ready to die and ready to kill.. that's why i'm studying the possibility of a "calibrated response".. Just a point, I think I’ll be ready to kill long before I’m ready to die, if I ever am ready to die at all. Atsaka hinde lang hospital o sementeryo pwedeng mangyari pag napaaway kayo, kalaboso pwede rin. some food for thought - have you noticed that most FMAs practice multiple hits? put a bolo or a balisong in place of that stick or dos puntas but don't forget the long hours of conditioning of reflexes.. now, imagine that eskrimador in a fight.. the possibilities.. nakakatakot no? This is true and it’s one of the advantages of FMA, but they don’t all have to go to the throat or stomach. They could go to non-vital but yet incapacitating areas like the eyes, knees, ribs, hands, knees, etc. Anyway…my two cents. Bart Hubbard --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Kes41355@aol.com Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 17:48:06 EST To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: stick density Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 10/31/02 6:03:29 AM US Eastern Standard Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > The quality of a rattan stick depends not on thickness but density. > Although you generally want a stick about 1" in diameter you must pick a > stick with good density. If you tap a stick and it has a relatively hollow > sound, it is not a good stick. By hollow I mean a dull, muffled and low > pitched sound, if the sound is higher pitched and resonates that is a dense > stick. you can also test density by swinging a stick around to feel the > heft. A fairly thick stick with good density is what you need. > > Hi, A good way to add density to rattan is to soak the stick in linseed oil for a couple of weeks. We use a PVC pipe, about 3" to 4" wide, capped at one end, and filled with linseed oil, (I think boiled oil works better that raw, it dries faster). Just drop the stick(s) in and let them soak up the oil over a period of a couple of weeks. The oil adds a nice heft to the stick, and give the surface a tacky feel, so your grip improves as you sweat instead of become slick. Kim --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Kes41355@aol.com Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 17:56:29 EST To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: multiple hits Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 10/31/02 3:27:26 PM US Eastern Standard Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > some food for thought - have you noticed that most > FMAs practice multiple hits? put a bolo or a balisong > in place of that stick or dos puntas but don't forget > the long hours of conditioning of reflexes.. now, > imagine that eskrimador in a fight.. the > possibilities.. nakakatakot no? :-) > Hi again Kenjo, In our school, we practice with the idea that in a real confrontation, you will only get one or maybe two solid hits in before the man moves, he drops, hits back, or his buddies join the fight. Therefore, we train to make the first one or two blows after a block/parry count. However, we do practice multiple blows to keep the stick in motion in order to pick up the daga (which invariably follows the baston strike) without a dangerous break in the flow. As you are well aware, a hesitation in flow against a knife in a deadly mistake to make. Kim --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Mark F. Ward" To: Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 15:12:47 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] Re: FMA's of only injuring to a degree, PK knife article Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I am in agreement with Kenjo. I would ask those that advocate using a closed knife as a striking implement or a less-lethal option take a hard look at the situation from the opponent's perspective. I don't care whether I am legally the attacker or the defender, if I manage to catch a glimpse of a knife - closed or opened - in my opponent's hand, it is serious fight or flight time. In my admittedly non-expert eyes, using a closed balisong is like pulling out a 1911 with the hammer down. If I see the weapon at all, it's go-time, and if I somehow manage to recognize that the weapon isn't immediately ready to function (which under stress I doubt I would) that would just mean one more mental point towards stripping the weapon away and burying it where the sun don't shine - or fleeing, unshot and unstabbed. I also believe that the fight or flight impulse seems much greater when weapons come into play. That is to say, I doubt I have the self control to back down if I have chosen to fight vs. run. I don't know because thankfully I've never been there, but I would imagine that upon recognizing a closed knife I would be thinking "what a moron, he didn't get his folder open" vs. "I'm sure glad my martial artist opponent has the courtesy and control to beat me about the head and shoulders with a blunt instrument rather than bury the pointy end in my gut". If I have assumed control of a knife from someone who I thought was going to stick me with it, I really don't know whether I would hear or recognize attempts to de-escalate. It's not because I'm Mr. Merciless Martial Artist, it's because I'm the opposite: Mr. Scared For His Life And Soaked In Stress Hormones. I don't know that I will ever reach the point in my martial studies to be able to control the situation like some advise, or at least to trust in my ability to do so. We are talking knife fighting here, folks, not a drunk brother-in-law. Tuhon Bill, good article. Have you posted an earlier revision of it? I could swear I've read it before - I don't mean this in a negative way, perhaps it's just because the article reflects what you've said in online discussions. I look forward to the pictures. A final note: a few nights ago an late-80's rerun of Cops showed a narcotics officer brandishing what looked a whole lot like a Colt Officer's model at a suspect to get him out of a car. The pistol was within 1 foot of the suspect's face (and hands). Yes, the hammer was down. One hopes my pistol ID was wrong or the gun was fitted with a DA conversion. For what it's worth, it worked like a charm: the bad guy ate asphalt ASAP, eyes like saucers. Best, mfw --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Tye Botting Organization: Tye's Kung Fu To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 18:15:41 -0600 Subject: [Eskrima] forms Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net On Thursday 31 October 2002 02:05 pm, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net % > From: Ray Terry % > To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net (Eskrima) % > Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 19:42:08 -0800 (PST) % > Subject: [Eskrima] Dai Po Chin ? % > % > I'm looking for the form (kata) Dai Po Chin (apparently Dai Fan Chie in % > Cantonese and Da Fan Che in Mandarin). It is suspected that this is the % > ancestor to the karate form Naihanchi (aka Naifanchi, Naihanji, Tekki, % > Chulgi). We do a form called Da Fan Che ("Big Turning Wheel"). Looks nothing like Naihanchi or Tekki, though, unless you were to severely flatten out some of the motions and change the way you were facing. I'll have to think a bit on this and compare and contrast with someone locally who does Naihanchi and get back to you. Granted, we do Northern Shaolin, but thought I'd add my two cents in. BTW, in some Northern styles that do a Da Fan Che, they also do a Hsiao San Che ("Small Turning Wheel"), though since we're not one of those, I couldn't venture to guess what it looks like. I can look in the Shaolin DaQuan and see if it's there. - Tye -- Dr. Tye W. Botting Northern Shaolin / Northern Praying Mantis tye@kungfu.cc Remy Presas' Modern Arnis http://www.kungfu.cc Yang Style Taijiquan --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of Eskrima Digest