Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 18:18:03 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 9 #418 - 6 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Inayan Eskrima / FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<-------- The Inayan/Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list -------->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). http://InayanEskrima.com/index.cfm See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Slash v stab (Michael Koblic) 2. Photos from Day of Play & Community: FMA Gathering (Elrik Gubisch Jundis) 3. Re: Pat Davies/Importing (Patrick Davies) 4. Re: Slash v stab (George R) 5. Re: Re: Secrets of the Samurai (Willy Lee) 6. Re: Slash v stab (Slaughterhouse) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Michael Koblic" To: "Eskrima digest" Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 20:26:18 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] Slash v stab Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I read with great interest the article by Mr. J. Keating on http://www.realfighting.com Unfortunately, my blade training is rudimentary and I did not quite follow all that was being said in the article. I understand that Mr. Keating is thought to be the foremost expert on the blade arts and I supect that a certain level of competence was assumed amongst the readership of the article which I obviously do not possess. Anyway, I felt much more research was needed. I searched the net for more articles by Mr. Keating and reviewed those of his videos in my possession. I also read articles by others on the topic. I would dearly love to attend one of Mr. Keating's seminars or at least get the rest of his video library, sadly this is not possible. Thus I am left with a number of nagging questions which I would like answered. These may be trivial to the experienced members of this Digest but perhaps someone could indulge me with a reply. I know that at least some of these topics were covered previously on this digest and I apologize for any repetition. 1) As I understand it stab with a point is more damaging than a slash particularly with a small knife where the small length of the cutting edge is unlikely to produce a significant (that is immediately disabling) wound. Thus a small knife is preferrably used in an ice-pick grip to give the stab more effectiveness. How then does one defend against the attack? Is defanging the snake still the aim? Should one try to stab the incoming limb? Or should one try to "hook" it something like the crossbody deflection as taught in Pekiti Tersia with the limb destruction by a secondary or tertiary technique? 2) If using the hooking technique on the limb (or another target, like the back of the neck) I understand it is preferrable to have the knife with edge "in" rather than edge "out". Unfortunately, vast majority of current knives, particularly folders are unsuitable to hold with the edge"in" grip. Does performing the hooking techniqe with the edge"out" still work? Has anyone had the lock fail on them performing such a manoeuvre? Intereestingly, the only picture I could find of Mr. Keating using the folder "Chinook" (designed by himself) is in the edge out configuration. I have only seen pictures of the other folder that he designed (forget the name, it was of the Masters of Defense series) and it looks that it might be awkward to use edge-in, too. 3) If stabbing is the preferred technique for achieving rapid disability in an opponent, why were the three most preferred weapons for close combat in WW II the kukri, the entrenching tool and the corpsman's axe. All of these are more likely to be used as slashing/impact weapons. Have I got this wrong? Is it the combination of weight and the edge that is so devastating, an effect that cannot be achieved by either slash or stab alone? This is perhaps not such an academic question: if one were to train for home defense in a situation where use of firearms is impossible or illegal, one ought to concentrate on what is most effective and equip oneself accordingly. Is having an arm/hand chopped off more *immediately* disabling than a stab to the abdomen, even if the latter is going to be eventually fatal? I am grateful for further information on this, Mike Koblic, Campbell River, BC --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 00:44:14 -0800 From: Elrik Gubisch Jundis To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Photos from Day of Play & Community: FMA Gathering Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Someone asked for photos from the November 2, 2002 Filipino Martial Arts gathering in San Francisco. I am working on a site to be put up by December 25, 2002 with more pictures. For now check out the two URL's below. http://www.omiebeacon.org/fmagathering.htm http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Angels_Disciples/files/ Cheers, Elrik Jundis School of Pilipino Mastery Arts elrik.jundis@pilipinoma.com (415) 601-2735 --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Patrick Davies To: "'eskrima@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 10:39:02 -0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Pat Davies/Importing Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net From: "Bill Lowery" : Read my post again. I am simply pointing out that if there is a demand someone will find a way to supply them. I'm well aware Bill of what you said and my post wasn't simply a retort to you but a retort on what you were saying. I agree with you, people will find a way around which is why I made my point. Which if you re read without personalizing it you should be able to see it in that light. I'm sorry that you changed the subject to my name. The list(s), imho, is about debate and discovering through other peoples views ways to look at the matter in hand. If I wanted a personal tit for tat I would simply mail direct. I trust this answers the implication that I have an issue with you which I do not. Anyway, more important things to get on with doing, best regards Pat Davies --__--__-- Message: 4 From: George R To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Slash v stab Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 10:45:13 -0500 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net On Sunday 01 December 2002 11:26 pm, you wrote: > 1) As I understand it stab with a point is more damaging than a slash > particularly with a small knife where the small length of the cutting edge > is unlikely to produce a significant (that is immediately disabling) wound. > Thus a small knife is preferrably used in an ice-pick grip to give the stab > more effectiveness. How then does one defend against the attack? Is > defanging the snake still the aim? Should one try to stab the incoming > limb? Or should one try to "hook" it something like the crossbody > deflection as taught in Pekiti Tersia with the limb destruction by a > secondary or tertiary technique? Being an idiot, I'm not sure why my folder and it's 3.5in blade wouldn't make an immediately disableing slash with that slash being across the throat. Then again, I'm not too sure where he (Keeting) gets the idea Asian MA are slash happy. I've got a zillion bruises from the pointy end of various blade weapons. I've gotten these from Chinesse, Japaneese, Okinawan, and Filipino edged weapons. As I type, both forearms, rt shoulder, and my neck have bruises from FMA edged weapon' pointy ends. > 2) If using the hooking technique on the limb (or another target, like the > back of the neck) I understand it is preferrable to have the knife with > edge "in" rather than edge "out". Unfortunately, vast majority of current > knives, particularly folders are unsuitable to hold with the edge"in" grip. > Does performing the hooking techniqe with the edge"out" still work? Has > anyone had the lock fail on them performing such a manoeuvre? > Intereestingly, the only picture I could find of Mr. Keating using the > folder "Chinook" (designed by himself) is in the edge out configuration. I > have only seen pictures of the other folder that he designed (forget the > name, it was of the Masters of Defense series) and it looks that it might > be awkward to use edge-in, too. I"ve broken all the locks but liner locks (give me time). I carry a CRKT M16-13Z. It works blade in or blade out. > 3) If stabbing is the preferred technique for achieving rapid disability in > an opponent, why were the three most preferred weapons for close combat in > WW II the kukri, the entrenching tool and the corpsman's axe. All of these > are more likely to be used as slashing/impact weapons. Have I got this > wrong? Is it the combination of weight and the edge that is so devastating, > an effect that cannot be achieved by either slash or stab alone? My PERSONAL opinion is Mr Keeting (and the Realfighting writer) has a MAJOR bias against Asian MA. Read the article again, paying close attention to his comments about being able to make $$ teaching as JAK vs being Asian. Apparently, he's had a hard time earning a living as an Asian MA instructor because he's white. --__--__-- Message: 5 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Secrets of the Samurai From: Willy Lee Date: 02 Dec 2002 10:09:33 -0800 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net bredfield writes: > This book is great, couldn't put it down, definitely buy it!! you will > not be disappointed > Bernard Enjoy the book, enjoy the beautiful drawings, but do take the historical information with a bit of salt. My first post to the list: hello all, just want to say I'm enjoying the mails. =wl -- "A real friend stabs you in the front" -Oscar Wilde --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Slaughterhouse" To: Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Slash v stab Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 18:51:54 -0700 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net 3) If stabbing is the preferred technique for achieving rapid disability in an opponent, why were the three most preferred weapons for close combat in WW II the kukri, the entrenching tool and the corpsman's axe. All of these are more likely to be used as slashing/impact weapons. Have I got this wrong? Is it the combination of weight and the edge that is so devastating, an effect that cannot be achieved by either slash or stab alone? ......These weapons would be very hard to mess up with. First off, with the exception of the Kukri, you have a good range of space between you and your adversary. Second, a good hit with an entrenching tool would come close to lopping something off. If it didn't, it could still either stun or possibly kill your opponent through trauma. Interesting to note a spade was the preferred weapon of the Soviet Spetznaz, they could actually throw them with effect. .....Same thing would go in our situation in Canada. Although someone could break into our house, to defend with, say a machete (while legal to own), the courts may look unfavourably to the way you have defended yourself. I have a sabre myself, but the disadvantage would be against me to manipulate it in closed quarters. Instead, a good bludgeoning weapon such as an oak stick or an axe handle would be good (definatley in the hands of someone that knows how to use them). Another would be a descent kitchen knife ( a nice one that you would keep around the bedroom), as it would be easier to explain away in the courts. Unfortunatley, our law system is against us here as you have to match defence with force. If you are attacked with a stick, that is the maximum you can defend yourself with. Only a police officer can use a higher amount of force in a heavy situation, and even they go through some serious legal obstacles at that point (like shooting a knife weilder). I will check our Criminal Code because I know that our rules for self defence are quite different from U.S. laws (we use the British Common-Laws). Dan --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of Eskrima Digest